MTP: TRUMP ON MUSLIM BAN LATEST: “DON’T THINK IT’S A ROLLBACK, IT’S AN EXPANSION,” “NOW LOOKING AT TERRITORIES”

ALSO: Trump on Clinton’s VP pick: “What happened with the choice of Tim Kaine was a slap in the face to Bernie Sanders”

PLUS: Sen. Bernie Sanders: Kaine “is more conservative than I am”

NBC News & MSNBC Continue Convention Coverage This Week from Philadelphia

JULY 24, 2016 — In a Sunday exclusive interview, Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump commented on the latest on proposed Muslim ban, telling moderator Chuck Todd: “You could say it’s an expansion. I’m looking now at territories. People were so upset when I used the word Muslim. ‘Oh, you can’t use the word Muslim.’ Remember this. And I’m okay with that, because I’m talking territory instead of Muslim.”

The wide-ranging interview also touched on former Sec. Hillary Clinton’s choice of Virginia Sen. Tim Kaine on her ticket, of which Trump told Todd he was “shocked” and that when it comes to Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), “it’s a rigged system against him.” He continued: “What happened with the choice of Tim Kaine was a slap in the face to Bernie Sanders and everybody.”

Watch the interview in full, including Trump on David Duke’s candidacy, Roger Ailes, NATO and more: http://nbcnews.to/2aE0FSQ.

Sen. Sanders also joined the network broadcast, reflecting on Sen. Kaine as the vice presidential candidate: “He is more conservative than I am. Would I have preferred to see somebody like an Elizabeth Warren selected by Secretary Clinton? Yes, I would have.” Watch the interview: http://nbcnews.to/2akIXpw.

Chuck also addressed the recent DNC email leaks: “I’m in one of the emails just– I’m the complaint department here sometimes at NBC. Somebody was complaining about coverage. And I said, “Okay, let’s talk on the phone,” or whatever. But we didn’t do anything about it, because I get complaints about coverage every hour, every day.”

Also joining the show this morning for insight and analysis were NBC News’ Andrea Mitchell; MSNBC’s Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow; and Michael Steele, former RNC chair and NBC News political analyst.

Tune in today to MSNBC at 5 p.m. ET for “MTP Daily with Chuck Todd,” live from Philadelphia.

Coverage of the Democratic National Convention continues with NBC News and MSNBC: http://nbcnews.to/29UD1mU.

# # #

MANDATORY CREDIT: NBC NEWS’ “MEET THE PRESS WITH CHUCK TODD”

Mandatory credit to NBC News’ “Meet the Press” on first reference.
The onscreen “Meet the Press” credit must be clearly visible and unobstructed at all times in any image, video clip, or other form of media.
Embedded web video must stream from the NBCNews.com media player with the unobstructed credit as described above.

# # #

Other videos from this morning’s network broadcast include:

Trump Says He Did Not “Rollback” His Muslim Ban http://nbcnews.to/2akJB6k
Trump on Convention Speech: “It Was Very Optimistic” http://nbcnews.to/2aDEJHp
Trump: Fox’s Ailes a “Very, Very Good Person” http://nbcnews.to/2anJipZ
Trump: Romney Lost Because of Taxes http://nbcnews.to/2am4UpY
Trump Quickly Rebukes David Duke http://nbcnews.to/2a2si86
Trump: I’m Running Against Hillary Clinton, Not ‘Rest of the World’ http://nbcnews.to/2aDh9KH
Panel: Andrea Mitchell: Trump Doesn’t Play by the Rules http://nbcnews.to/29XMSFM
Panel: Chris Matthews: Kaine a ‘True, Blue Good Guy” http://nbcnews.to/2aaQcRl
#comPRESSed: Watch “Meet the Press” in Less Than Two Minutes http://nbcnews.to/2a2vKzD

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday, the Democratic National Convention gets underway here in Philadelphia, after a raucous and unpredictable Republican convention. That ended with the nomination of Donald Trump.

DONALD TRUMP:

I am with you, I will fight for you, and I will win for you.

CHUCK TODD:

This morning, my sit-down with Donald Trump on his convention speech.

DONALD TRUMP:

The only negative reviews were a little dark.

CHUCK TODD:

On whether he’s backing off on his Muslim band.

DONALD TRUMP:

I actually don’t think it’s a pull-back. In fact, you could say it’s an expansion.

CHUCK TODD:

And on Hillary Clinton’s choice of Tim Kaine.

DONALD TRUMP:

Tim Kaine was a slap in the face to Bernie Sanders.

CHUCK TODD:

Plus Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine hit the road in Florida.

HILLARY CLINTON:

Tim Kaine is everything Donald Trump and Mike Pence are not.

CHUCK TODD:

But some Bernie Sanders supporters are criticizing the Kaine pick as a sellout to moderates. I’ll talk to Sanders and get his reaction to that and to the DNC Wikileaks e-mail release. Joining me for insight and analysis are MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow, former chairman of the RNC, Michael Steele, NBC News Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, and host of Hardball and Philadelphia hometown boy, Chris Matthews. Trump, Sanders and reactions to the new Democratic ticket. Welcome to Sunday, in a special edition of Meet the Press at the Democratic National Convention.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning. We are at the Wells Fargo Center here in South Philadelphia, home of the NBA 76ers and the NHL Broad Street Bullies, the Fliers. Democrats have begun to arrive, along with a pretty bad heat wave. And beginning tomorrow, they will gather to officially nominate Hillary Clinton as their presidential candidate.

Yesterday in Miami, Clinton was joined by her new running mate, Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, in an upbeat event that was notable simply by the contrast to the disorganized rollout of Donald Trump’s running mate a week earlier, Mike Pence.

(BEGIN TAPE)

SEN. TIM KAINE:

Hillary Clinton, she doesn’t insult people, she listens to them. What a novel concept, right? She doesn’t trash our allies, she respects them. And she’ll always have our backs, that is something I am rock solid sure of.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

We will get to reaction to the new Democratic ticket later in the show, including my interview with Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont in a moment. But first, we’re going to talk also about Sanders, about those Wikileaks emails and what they may say about DNC favoritism towards Hillary Clinton. But we begin with the man who has now taken control of the Republican Party. It’s nominee Donald Trump.

I traveled to Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey, sort of his weekend getaway, last night for a face-to-face interview since dropping the word “presumptive,” it’s his first one, from the nominee title. We touched on so much: Tim Kaine, Trump’s tax returns, his proposed restrictions on Muslim immigration and why he says he alone can fix the country’s problems. But I began by asking him how it feels to be the Republican nominee for president of the United States.

(BEGIN TAPE)

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, it really feels great. And we really have a very unified party, other than a very small group of people that, frankly, lost. And we have a very unified party. You saw that the other night with the love in the room, and the enthusiasm in the room. The enthusiasm, there are people that say they have never seen anything like what was going on in that room, especially Thursday night.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me tell you, you bring up Thursday night, I’ve got to ask you about your entrance. Before we get serious here. That Monday night entrance was something else. I know you’ve gotten a lot of feedback on it. How’d you come up with it?

DONALD TRUMP:

I think I’m a little bit lucky, and a couple of people had that idea and I went along with the idea. And everything just worked right. And it was so good that they wanted to do it on Thursday night. I said, “Never in a million years, because you’ll never get it that way again.”

CHUCK TODD:

I don’t think I’ve seen that even on WWE.

DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah, I know. Well, Vince is a good friend of mine. He called me, he said, “That was a very, very good entrance.” But I didn’t want to do it a second time, because, you know, it never works out the second time.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, let’s go into the speech. I want to put some meat on the bones. But first, let’s talk about, you’ve seen some of the positive reviews, some of the negative reviews. Some of the negative has been that it was a little dark–

DONALD TRUMP:

That’s the only thing that–

CHUCK TODD:

–that there wasn’t enough optimism in it. What would you say? It’s not Morning in America.

DONALD TRUMP:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

What would you say to that?

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I think the only negativity, and, you know, the hate, I call them the haters, and that’s fine. But the only negative reviews were, “A little dark.” And the following day, they had another attack, and then today you see what happened in Afghanistan with many, many people killed.

They have no idea how many, so many killed. Yesterday it was Munich. And you know, I know they’re saying, “Maybe it wasn’t terrorism. Maybe it was just a crazy guy.” But in the meantime he’s screaming, “Allahu Akbar,” as he’s shooting people, so, you know, we’ll see how that turns out. And all of a sudden people are saying, “Maybe it wasn’t dark at all.” But the only thing that some people said, “It was a little dark. It was a little bit tough.”

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think it was a little dark?

DONALD TRUMP:

No, oh, I thought it was very optimistic. To me, it was an optimistic speech, because–

CHUCK TODD:

What makes it optimistic in your view?

DONALD TRUMP:

Because we’re going to stop the problems. We’re going to stop the problems. In other words, sure, I talk about the problems, but we’re going to solve the problems.

CHUCK TODD:

One of the phrases you used, “I alone can fix it.” And to some people, that sounded almost too strong-mannish for them. Do you understand that criticism and what do you make of it?

DONALD TRUMP:

I’ll tell you, part of it was I’m comparing myself to Hillary. And we know Hillary, and we look at her record. Her record has been a disaster. And I am running against Hillary. It’s not like I’m running against the rest of the world. I know people that are very, very capable that could do a very good job, but they could never get elected.

I can tell you right now. I can give you ten names of people that would do an extraordinary job, but there’s no way they could ever get elected. They wouldn’t know where to begin. It wouldn’t be for them. But for governing, they would be good. I’m running and, you know, against one person.

CHUCK TODD:

You said there would be consequences for any company that tried to move a factory out. What–

DONALD TRUMP:

Absolutely, so simple–

CHUCK TODD:

–what is the consequence? Let’s start with, you bring up Carrier a lot.

DONALD TRUMP:

It’s so simple–

(OVERTALK)

CHUCK TODD:

Right, I understand that. But explain the consequences–

DONALD TRUMP:

Okay, here’s the consequence–

CHUCK TODD:

What would it be?

DONALD TRUMP:

So Carrier comes in, they announce they’re moving to Mexico, they fire all their people in Indiana, and they say, “Hi, well, here we are in Mexico, you know, enjoy your plant, enjoy the rest of your life,” and you hire people from Mexico, okay? Now they make their product and they put it into the United States.

Well, we will have a very strong border, by the way, but they put it into the United States and we don’t charge them tax. There will be a tax to be paid. If they’re going to fire all their people, move their plant to Mexico, build air conditioners, and think they’re going to sell those air conditioners to the United States, there’s going to be a tax.

CHUCK TODD:

What kind of tax are you thinking?

DONALD TRUMP:

It could be 25 percent. It could be 35 percent. It could be 15 percent. I haven’t determined. And it could be different for different companies. We have been working on trying to stop this government, because we don’t know what we’re doing. And not only Obama, they’ve been trying to stop this from before Obama. But they don’t know. You know, they’ve done, they’ve tried lower interest loans, they’ve tried zero interest loans, these guys–

CHUCK TODD:

Well, some of these things aren’t going to get through the World Trade Organization. There’s–

DONALD TRUMP:

It doesn’t matter. Then we’re going to renegotiate or we’re going to pull out. These trade deals are a disaster, Chuck. World Trade Organization is a disaster.

CHUCK TODD:

You know the concern on some of this–

DONALD TRUMP:

NAFTA is a disaster–

CHUCK TODD:

— is that it would rattle the world economy. Look what Brexit did to the world economy. Investors got rattled.

DONALD TRUMP:

What did it do? What did it do?

CHUCK TODD:

Now you–

DONALD TRUMP:

The stock market’s higher now than it was when it happened. And by the way, I’m the only one of all of these people at the higher level of the wonderful world of politics, I’m the only one that said, “Brexit’s going to happen.” Remember, I was asked the question. I said, “Yeah, I think they’re going to approve it. I think they want independence. I don’t think they want people pouring into their country.” And I was–

CHUCK TODD:

You’re not worried about, you think a fractured Europe is good for America?

DONALD TRUMP:

No, no. But we’re spending a lot of money on Europe. Don’t forget, Europe got together, why, primarily did they get together? So that they could beat the United States when it comes to making money, in other words, foreign trade–

CHUCK TODD:

Economic–

DONALD TRUMP:

Okay? And now we talk about Europe like it’s so wonderful. Hey, I love Europe, I have property in Europe. I’m just saying, the reason that it got together was like a consortium so that it could compete with the United States–

CHUCK TODD:

So what you’re saying is all this stuff is good for America, even if it’s not good for Europe?

DONALD TRUMP:

Look, you take a look at Airbus. They make more planes now than Boeing, okay? They got together, all of these countries got together so that they could beat the United States. Okay, so we’re in competition. So you know, we’re in competition in one way, we’re helping them in another way. It is so messed up.

CHUCK TODD:

The Muslim ban. I think you’ve pulled back from it, but you tell me.

(BEGIN TAPE)

DONALD TRUMP:

We must immediately suspend immigration from any nation that has been compromised by terrorism until such time as proven vetting mechanisms have been put in place.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

This feels like a slight rollback–

DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t think that’s–

CHUCK TODD:

Should it be interpreted–

DONALD TRUMP:

I don’t think so. I actually don’t think it’s a rollback. In fact, you could say it’s an expansion. I’m looking now at territories. People were so upset when I used the word Muslim. Oh, you can’t use the word Muslim. Remember this. And I’m okay with that, because I’m talking territory instead of Muslim.

But just remember this: Our Constitution is great. But it doesn’t necessarily give us the right to commit suicide, okay? Now, we have a religious, you know, everybody wants to be protected. And that’s great. And that’s the wonderful part of our Constitution. I view it differently.

Why are we committing suicide? Why are we doing that? But you know what? I live with our Constitution. I love our Constitution. I cherish our Constitution. We’re making it territorial. We have nations and we’ll come out, I’m going to be coming out over the next few weeks with a number of the places. And it’s very complex–

CHUCK TODD:

Well I was just going to say–

DONALD TRUMP:

–we have problems in Germany and we have problems with France–

CHUCK TODD:

I was just going to ask that. Will this limitt–

DONALD TRUMP:

You know, so it’s not just the countries with–

CHUCK TODD:

–would this limit immigration from France?

DONALD TRUMP:

What we’re going to have is a thing called–

CHUCK TODD:

They’ve been compromised by terrorism.

DONALD TRUMP:

They have totally been. And you know why? It’s their own fault. Because they allowed people to come into their territory–

CHUCK TODD:

So you would toughen up. You’re basically saying, “Hey, if the French want to come over here, you’ve got to go through an extra check.”

DONALD TRUMP:

It’s their own fault, because they’ve allowed people over years to come into their territory. And that’s why Brexit happened, okay? Because the U.K. is saying, “We’re tired of this stuff, what’s going on, we’re tired of.” But listen to this–

CHUCK TODD:

You could get to the point where you’re not allowing a lot of people to come into this country from a lot of places.

DONALD TRUMP:

Maybe we get to that point. Chuck, look what’s happening. Look at what just took place in Afghanistan, where they blow up a whole shopping center with people, they have no idea how many people were even killed. Happened today. So we have to be smart and we have to be vigilant and we have to be strong. We can’t be the stupid people–

CHUCK TODD:

So France, Germany, Spain–

DONALD TRUMP:

Here’s my plan–

CHUCK TODD:

–places that have been compromised?

DONALD TRUMP:

–here is what I want: Extreme vetting. Tough word. Extreme vetting.

CHUCK TODD:

What does that look like?

DONALD TRUMP:

Tough. We’re going to have tough standards. And if a person can’t prove–

CHUCK TODD:

Give me one.

DONALD TRUMP:

–that they’re from an area, and if a person can’t prove what they have to be able to prove, they’re not coming into this country. And I would stop the Syrian migration and the Syrian from coming into this country in two seconds. Hillary Clinton wants to take 550 percent more people coming in from that area than Barack Obama. I think she’s crazy. I think she’s crazy. We have no idea who these people are for the most part, and you know, because I’ve seen them on different shows–

CHUCK TODD:

All right.

DONALD TRUMP:

–but more importantly, I’ve read about it. I study it. There is no way that you can vet some of these people. There is no way. Law enforcement officials, I’ve had them in my office. I’ve talked to them.

CHUCK TODD:

You realize some of these folks have nowhere to go? They’re truly victims of this civil war, what do you do with them?

DONALD TRUMP:

We will help them and we will build safe havens over in Syria, and we will get Gulf States–

CHUCK TODD:

We, the United States are going to build these safe havens?

DONALD TRUMP:

We, the United States, we’ll get Gulf States to pay for it, because we right now, we’re going to have $21 trillion very soon, trillion, in debt. We will do safe havens and safe zones in Syria and we will get nations that are so wealthy that are not doing anything. They’re not doing much. They have nothing but money. And you know who I’m talking about, the Gulf States. And we will get them to pay for it. We would lead it. I don’t want to pay because our country is going down the tubes. We owe too much money.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Let me move to something with NATO. Mitch McConnell said this about your NATO remarks in the New York Times. He said it was a rookie mistake, and that once you, let me finish the comment here. “It’s a rookie mistake, and it proves that Trump needs people like us around to help steer him in the right direction on some basic things.”

DONALD TRUMP:

He’s 100 percent wrong. Okay? He’s 100 percent wrong if he said that. I didn’t hear he said that–

CHUCK TODD:

He did say it.

DONALD TRUMP:

Okay, fine, fine–

CHUCK TODD:

New York Times—

DONALD TRUMP:

If he said that, he’s 100 percent wrong. And frankly it’s sad. We have NATO, and we have many countries that aren’t paying for what they’re supposed to be paying, which is already too little, but they’re not paying anyway. And we’re giving them a free ride or giving them a ride where they owe us tremendous amounts of money. And they have the money. But they’re not paying it. You know why? Because they think we’re stupid–

CHUCK TODD:

So Estonia is paying, and if they get invaded by Russia, you’re there?

DONALD TRUMP:

I feel differently. I feel very differently–

CHUCK TODD:

But if a country’s not doing — Britain hasn’t done the two percent.

DONALD TRUMP:

We have countries that aren’t paying. Now, this goes beyond NATO, because we take care of– we take care of Japan, we take care of Germany, we take care of South Korea, we take care of Saudi Arabia, and we lose on everything. We lose on everything. If Mitch McConnell says that, then he’s wrong.

So all I’m saying is they have to pay. Now, a country gets invaded, they haven’t paid, everyone says, “Oh, but we have a treaty.” Well, they have a treaty too. They’re supposed to be paying. We have countries within NATO that are taking advantage of us. With me, I believe they’re going to pay. And when they pay, I’m a big believer in NATO.

But if they don’t pay, we don’t have, you know, Chuck, this isn’t 40 years ago. This isn’t 50 years ago. It’s not 30 years ago. We’re a different country today. We’re much weaker, our military is depleted, we owe tremendous amounts of money. We have to be reimbursed. We can no longer be the stupid country.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, what Donald Trump says about David Duke, Bernie Sanders, and whether he really plans to spend millions for the sole purpose of defeating Ted Cruz and John Kasich. Sanders about Trump and about his reaction to Tim Kaine becoming Hillary Clinton’s running mate. We’re in Philadelphia, site of the Democratic National Convention. Stay with us.

***COMMERCIAL BREAK***

CHUCK TODD:

Such a beautiful city here. Welcome back. More now of my interview with Donald Trump at The Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, New Jersey. And since we had a limited amount of time, I ended up speeding things up by asking Trump for some quick reaction to simply some very prominent names in the news.

(BEGIN TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

I’m just going to literally throw out a name and you’ll know the question I’m asking. Bernie Sanders.

DONALD TRUMP:

Great respect for what he’s done. He is being taken advantage of, and frankly, the system was rigged, and I’m the first one to say it was rigged against him. And by the way–

CHUCK TODD:

You took after him. You took after him. You said for supporting Hillary Clinton, you think he needs to–

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I’m not a fan of Bernie Sanders. But I am a fan of one thing that he talks about: Trade. He is the only one on that side that understands trade. Now, he can’t do anything about it because that’s not his thing. But he has been gamed. He has been, it’s a rigged system against him. And what happened with the choice of Tim Kaine was a slap in the face to Bernie Sanders and everybody. I was shocked. I love it from my standpoint, I love–

CHUCK TODD:

Why do you love the Kaine pick?

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, first of all, he took over $160,000 of gifts. And they said, “Well, they weren’t really gifts, they were suits and trips and lots of different things,” all for 160–

CHUCK TODD:

Legal, legal in the state of Virginia.

DONALD TRUMP:

Bob McDonnell– I believe it was Bob McDonnell, in the meantime, he had to go to the United States Supreme Court to get out of going to jail–

CHUCK TODD:

Well, they proved to quid pro quo–

DONALD TRUMP:

–for taking a fraction of what–

CHUCK TODD:

They proved quid pro quo on that one.

DONALD TRUMP:

Excuse me, Bob McDonnell took a fraction of what Kaine took. And I think, to me, it’s a big problem. Now, how do you take all these gifts? Hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other thing about him, he’s bought and owned by the banks. And the third thing, he’s in favor of TPP and every other trade deal that he’s ever looked at. And that means he wants people not to work.

Now, he’s going to change his tune. And I understand he’s now going to say, “I’m against TPP.” Hillary Clinton was totally in favor of TPP, which is the job killer, right? So was he. When she watched me on your show and other shows, all of a sudden she changed, because she knows she can’t win that in a debate.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Ted Cruz, I’m going to amend it, are you really going to fund a super PAC to help defeat him–

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, it’s not the number one thing on my mind. Look, what’s on my mind is beating Hillary Clinton. What’s on my mind is winning for the Republican Party. With that being said, yeah, I’ll probably do a super PAC, you know, when they run against Kasich, for $10 million to $20 million, against Ted Cruz. And maybe one other person that I’m thinking about–

CHUCK TODD:

Who’s that other one person?

DONALD TRUMP:

–but I won’t tell you that. I mean, he’s actually such a small person, I hate to give him the publicity. But yes, I will probably do that at the appropriate at time. But I’m not going to do that until–

CHUCK TODD:

Oh, give me the small person here.

DONALD TRUMP:

No, no, don’t worry about it. We’ll give it to you another time.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, let me ask you about this one. David Duke announced his Senate candidacy claiming your agenda for his own, or essentially saying, “Glad that you spoke out.”

DONALD TRUMP:

Are you ready, before you ask the question?

CHUCK TODD:

Newt Gingrich said, “Every Republican should repudiate this guy no matter what it takes”–

DONALD TRUMP:

I did. And I do. Are you ready? I want–

CHUCK TODD:

Would you support a Democrat over David Duke if that was what was necessary to defeat him?

DONALD TRUMP:

I guess, depending on who the Democrat, but the answer would be yes. Look, the answer is, as quick as you can say it. In fact, I went to answer you before you–

DONALD TRUMP:

Because last time with another person in your position, I did it very quickly. And they said, “He didn’t do it fast enough.” Rebuked. Is that okay? Rebuked, done–

CHUCK TODD:

Rebuked, done. Okay. Tax returns. A lot of conspiracy theories are being out there about why– what’s in your tax returns. You would get rid of all these conspiracy theories tomorrow–

DONALD TRUMP:

Let me tell you–

CHUCK TODD:

Probably make people look silly–

DONALD TRUMP:

Let me tell you. Let me give you a little lesson on tax returns. First of all, you don’t learn very much from a tax return. I put in to the federal elections group 100 and some-odd pages of my financials. It showed, as you know, that I’m much wealthier than anybody even understood, okay? Tremendous cash, tremendous assets, tremendous all that stuff. Okay, that’s it. I’m going through a routine audit. Just a routine audit, and I’ve had it for I think 14 years, 13 years–

CHUCK TODD:

Why?

DONALD TRUMP:

Every year they audit me. It’s routine government. I would never give my tax returns until the audit’s finished. But remember this: Mitt Romney, four years ago, was under tremendous pressure to give his tax returns. And he held it and held it and held it, and he fought it, and he, you know, he didn’t do too well, okay? But he didn’t do anything wrong on his taxes. When he gave his tax returns, people forget, not now. He gave them in September, before the election–

CHUCK TODD:

So you still might release them–

DONALD TRUMP:

No, wait a minute, wait a minute. When he did, and his tax returns are a tiny peanut compared to mine, they went through his tax returns. And they found one little sentence, another little– there was nothing wrong. And they made him look bad. In fact I think he lost his election because of that.

CHUCK TODD:

Because of the tax returns?

DONALD TRUMP:

I think he lost. And I’ll tell you why: He didn’t do anything wrong. Mitt Romney did nothing wrong. But they would take out of, his weren’t too big. Have you ever seen mine with the picture, they’re like this high?

CHUCK TODD:

I have seen that picture, yes.

DONALD TRUMP:

Okay, so they took his tax return and they found a couple of little things. Nothing wrong, just standard. And they made him look very bad, very unfair. But with all that said, I’d love to give them, but I’m under audit. When the audit’s finished I’ll give them.

CHUCK TODD:

Finally, Roger Ailes. Is he helping you? Is he advising you?

DONALD TRUMP:

Well, I don’t want to comment. But he’s been a friend of mine for a long time, and I can tell you that some of the women that are complaining, I know how much he’s helped them. And even recently, and when they write books that are fairly recently released, and they say wonderful things about him.

And now all of a sudden they’re saying these horrible things about him. It’s very sad. Because he’s a very good person. I’ve always found him to be just a very, very good person. And by the way, a very, very talented person. Look what he’s done. So I feel very badly. But a lot of people are thinking he’s going to run my campaign.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, well–

DONALD TRUMP:

My campaign’s doing pretty well.

CHUCK TODD:

Mr. Trump, until we meet again.

DONALD TRUMP:

Thank you very much–

CHUCK TODD:

Thank you for your time, sir, appreciate it.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

Up next, the man who had hoped to be the candidate being nominated by Democrats right here in Philadelphia this week, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. What does he think of those leaked DNC e-mails? We’ll get his first comments since it happened. We’re going to be right back in just a minute.

***COMMERCIAL BREAK***

(BEGIN TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

Tremendous shots there of a beautiful city. Welcome back. It’s not the kind of thing you want happening days before your convention. This weekend, Wikileaks released nearly 20,000 emails sent and received by members of the Democratic National Committee, some of which seem to confirm what a lot of people had suspected, that the DNC was playing favorites with Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders.

It appears Wikileaks either stole these emails or got them from a source. Remember, the DNC was hacked a few months ago. Among the emails was one from the DNC’s Chief Financial Officer Brad Marshall that was looking ahead to the contests in Kentucky and West Virginia in early May. While not mentioning Sanders specifically by name, the email appeared to question Sanders’ faith.

He wrote this, quote: “Does he believe in a god? I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.” Well, Sanders has long believed that DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz was in Clinton’s corner the whole campaign. Well, he joins me now. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press.

And I should note that you talked about your belief in God last fall in an interview, I think, with your hometown paper there, so want to get that out of the way. So let me start with this question questioning your faith. Brad Marshall apologized on Facebook. Has anyone apologized to you personally? And what is your response to this entire discussion?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, no, nobody has apologized to me. And as you just mentioned, this really does not come as a shock to me or my supporters. There is no question but the DNC was on Secretary Clinton’s side from day one. We all know that. And I think, as I have said a long time ago, that the time is now for Debbie Wasserman Schultz to step aside, not only for these issues.

We need a Democratic Party that is open, that’s going to bring young people and working people into it, that is going to stand up and take on the big money interests and fight for working families. I don’t think Debbie has been that type of leader. So I would hope, and I said this many months ago, that she would–

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

BERNIE SANDERS:

–step aside, we would have new leadership.

CHUCK TODD:

And do you think it needs to happen now, today, before the start of the convention?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well–

CHUCK TODD:

Would that help calm some of your supporters down?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think what is already happening is that it’s clear she is not going to be speaking to the convention. That is the right thing. I think right now what we have got to focus on as Democrats is defeating perhaps the worst Republican candidate that I have seen in my lifetime. Donald Trump would be a disaster for this country. He must be defeated.

We’ve got to elect Secretary Clinton on every single issue: fighting for the middle class on health care, on climate change, is a far, far superior candidate to Trump. That’s where I think the focus has got to be.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you believe that the DNC’s apparent favoritism cost you this race?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think you– there are a lot of reasons why one loses. We started off 50 points behind Secretary Clinton. We had the opposition of virtually the entire Democratic leadership in every state in this country. And by the way, in terms of media, we did not get the kind of media attention that somebody like a Donald Trump got, because media is not necessarily interested in the issues facing the middle class, more interested in attacks in personality. So I think there were a lot of reasons.

But I will tell you this, Chuck, from the bottom of my heart, I am extraordinarily proud of the campaign that we ran. The issues that we raised, the fact that we got 13 million Americans to vote for a political revolution. People who know the economy is rigged in favor of big money, people who know that our middle class continues to decline and we have to go outside of establishment politics and economics, people who know that we need to reform a broken criminal justice system and we need comprehensive immigration reform.

The people– what we did in our campaign is bring people together to say, “You know what? This country, our government, belongs to all of us and not just a few.” So I am very proud of the campaign we ran and the supporters that came on board.

CHUCK TODD:

So just to sum up here, these leaks, these emails, it hasn’t given you any pause about your support for Hillary Clinton?

BERNIE SANDERS:

No, no, no. We are going to do everything that we can to protect working families in this country. And again, Chuck, I know media is not necessarily focused on these things. But what a campaign is about is not Hillary Clinton, it’s not Donald Trump. It is the people of this country, people who are working longer hours for lower wages, people who do not have health care or are underinsured.

Hillary Clinton and I have worked together on a higher education proposal which will guarantee free tuition in public colleges and universities for every family in this country making $125,000 a year or less. We’re going to fight for paid family and medical leave. Those are the issues that the American people want to hear discussed, and I’m going to go around the country discussing them and making sure that Hillary Clinton is elected president.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, The Green Party presumptive nominee, Jill Stein, put out a release yesterday about the emails. And she said this: “Democratic Party elites have been caught red-handed, sabotaging a grassroots campaign that tried to bring huge numbers of young people, independents and non-voters into their party. Instead, they have shown exactly why America needs a new major party, a truly democratic party for the people.” Are you going to urge your supporters not to support Jill Stein and try to thwart her efforts to recruit your supporters?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, you know, let me just say this. As the longest serving Independent in the history of the United States Congress, as somebody who came into office by defeating an incumbent Democratic mayor in Burlington, Vermont, I know something about third party politics. And I respect Jill.

But right now, the focus, to my mind, is to make sure that Donald Trump does not become president of the United States. I think by temperament he is unqualified to be president. I think his views– you have a guy who’s running for president who rejects science, doesn’t even believe climate change is real, let alone wants to do something about it, wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top two-tenths of one percent.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you–

BERNIE SANDERS:

So my job right now is to see that Donald Trump is defeated, Hillary Clinton is elected.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, he makes a big deal out of the fact that you and he agree on one big issue, and that is trade deals, that these trade deals have been bad for the country. And he basically says that Clinton and Kaine, as a ticket, aren’t– that their opposition, for instance, the TPP as sort of Johnny-come-lately, that it can’t be trusted, and that Sanders supporters should support Trump if they care about trade. What do you say to that?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think in terms of who can be trusted, I think the evidence is clear that there has been no candidate that I have ever seen who lies more often than does Donald Trump. I mean and that’s just not me saying it, that’s what any independent media analysis has shown. So in terms of trust, you really can’t trust a word, I think, that Mr. Trump has to say.

In terms of the TPP, it is no secret. I think our trade policies, for many, many years, have been a disaster. They have benefited corporate America at the expense of working people. Secretary Clinton has come out in opposition to the TPP, does not want to see it–

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

BERNIE SANDERS:

–appear in the lame duck Congress. That’s my view, as well.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, some of your supporters are disappointed in the pick of Tim Kaine, that he’s not progressive enough. I know Tim Kaine called you after he was picked. Do you consider Tim Kaine a progressive? And are you happy with this pick?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Look, you know, the pick is Secretary Clinton’s. I’ve known Tim Kaine for a number of years. We’ve served in the Senate together, obviously. Tim is a very, very smart guy. He’s a very nice guy. His political views are not my political views. He is more conservative than I am. Would I have preferred to see somebody like an Elizabeth Warren selected by Secretary Clinton? Yes, I would have.

CHUCK TODD:

And then finally, do you feel as if, that you, when you got Glass-Steagall, I wanted to ask about this, because it looks like the one thing that both parties may agree on in their platforms is putting– is being in favor of reinstating Glass-Steagall. Does this mean we will see that happen in the next Congress?

BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I’m going to do everything that I can to make it happen. You know, when we talk about our campaign, one of the things that we have been able to do, Chuck, is create the most progressive Democratic platform in the history of the Democratic Party, and that includes breaking up the large Wall Street banks and reestablishing Glass-Steagall.

I think the American people understand that we cannot continue to have a handful of reckless, irresponsible banks often acting illegally, that something has to happen. They have to be broken up.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, Senator Bernie Sanders. The big speech is tomorrow night. We’ll be waiting for you here in a very, very hot Philadelphia, over 100 degrees.

BERNIE SANDERS:

Okay.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator Sanders, thanks for coming on. Good to see you, sir.

BERNIE SANDERS:

Thank you very much.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, reaction to Hillary Clinton’s choice of Tim Kaine as a running mate, who showed why he might have appeal, unique appeal, to a very important voting bloc.

(BEGIN TAPE)

SEN. TIM KAINE:

Aprendilo valores de mi pueblo–faith, familia, y trabajo.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD

And we’ll be back in a moment from Philadelphia with this great panel. Rachel Maddow, Michael Steele, Andrea Mitchell, and Chris Matthews. Stay tuned.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

And we’ll be back in a moment from Philadelphia with this great panel, Rachel Maddow, Michael Steele, Andrea Mitchell, and Chris Matthews. Stay tuned.

***COMMERCIAL TAPE***

CHUCK TODD:

We are back. So much to talk about already. Our panel is here, Rachel Maddow, host of The Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele, he’s sort of the fish out of water here in Philadelphia. Andrea Mitchell, NBC News, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent, host, of course, of Andrea Mitchell Reports on MSNBC. And a Philadelphia native himself, Mr. Brotherly Love Chris Matthews, host of Hardball—

RACHEL MADDOW:

Mr. Brotherly Love?

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

And sisterly affection.

CHUCK TODD:

–Sisterly affection here for the Penn grad.

CHUCK TODD:

And– this morning by the way we have new pictures of Tim Kaine walking into church this morning in Richmond, Virginia. He now realizes, and now his parish is realizing, what it’s like to have Secret Service following around a member of the parish there. All right.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Know what his Secret Service name is going to be yet?

CHUCK TODD:

What do we think the code name should be?

ANDREA MITCHELL:

But we’re not sure–

RACHEL MADDOW:

Well, the big joke was that if you’re boring enough, your Secret Service name is Tim Kaine.

CHUCK TODD:

Ooh.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Right? That–

CHUCK TODD:

Those are old Johnny Carson and Jay Leno, Al Gore jokes–

CHUCK TODD:

All right, you guys are having already too much fun.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Sorry, sorry.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me just throw it out here. We heard what Bernie Sanders said about Tim Kaine. It was, that was tougher than I expected.

RACHEL MADDOW:

“His politics are not my politics.”

ANDREA MITCHELL:

That’s really —

RACHEL MADDOW:

“He does not share my political views.” That’s an aggressive take from Bernie. I’m not surprised. Bernie’s an aggressive politician. And I think when Senator Sanders speaks at the DNC, I think everybody’s going to be on the edge of their seat. I think that he is not going to pull a Ted Cruz because he’s already made an endorsement.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, he said, “I’m for Hillary,” and he was tough on Trump.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah. And but he doesn’t relish going after Trump. He likes going after the Democratic Party to try to move the Democratic Party. That’s his target, always has been.

MICHAEL STEELE:

It’s still obvious, he’s not ‘Feeling the Bern’ for Hillary. And that was very obvious. And when you asked about the trust question, he didn’t say he trusted Hillary Clinton. He said he didn’t trust Donald Trump. So the reality of it is there’s still some tension there that Bernie is reflecting among his supporters. And it was evident there. I mean–

RACHEL MADDOW:

He’s got a mission that’s bigger than one election. He always has.

MICHAEL STEELE:

That’s true.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

And in fact, he could quiet the march that is planned to go from the center of Center City, and Rittenhouse Square all the way down at Independence Hall. This march is going to disrupt the city today, no matter how peaceful, because this is a city, in 100-degree heat, that is planning for a convention. And it’s going to be a very large outpouring. He also said–

CHUCK TODD:

And by the way, the hotter it is, the crankier people will be.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Yeah. And he also says that Tim Kaine doesn’t share his politics, not only that, but that he would have preferred Elizabeth Warren. He made it very clear; Tim Kaine is a nice guy, but he’s not endorsing or embracing someone who Hillary Clinton —

CHUCK TODD:

There’s a painful look in your face, Chris.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

–called Tim Kaine a progressive.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

He didn’t get to pick. Hillary Clinton did. And I’ve watched Hillary Clinton. I’ve watched a lot of politicians over the years. You can tell when they’re actually happy, not when they fake the laugh or anything else. She looked delighted during his speech yesterday. And I haven’t seen her that delighted in a long time. She had found her guy to be her running mate. I think she loved it.

And I think one thing we’re getting all excited about, I understand why the progressives are upset. But one thing historically we all know is the selection of a vice president is a poor predictor of the direction of that administration.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

FDR picked John Nance Garner–

RACHEL MADDOW:

It’s not a policy pick.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Kennedy picked another conservative from the south, Lyndon Johnson, relatively conservative. And then we got the New Deal out of that and we got the Great Society we got the New Frontier. It’s a poor predictor. Now, if this is about spoils, they’ve got an argument. They wanted a piece of the action. But there’s differences between spoils and direction.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to throw out the one thing that Trump’s trying to hit Kaine on, well, two things. But the one big one is the gifts in Virginia.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

I only throw it out there is that I heard Ed Rendell ask to defend it. And he struggled, Andrea. He said, “Well, it’s illegal in Pennsylvania.”

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Virginia–

CHUCK TODD:

Okay. And it’s legal in Virginia. That wasn’t exactly a resounding defense.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Yeah. Virginia has a very strange, let’s face it, strange gift law. The difference with Bob McDonnell, who was convicted, and then the Supreme Court overturned it, is there was no quid pro quo. He declared it. That was the main thing. He declared everything, put it down, in fact, computed higher numbers to staying in friends’ houses. He put everything down. He was meticulous about it.

So they don’t think there’s a big ethics thing. Just on his progressivity or lack of it, he has this civil rights background. I mean I was in the room. And what you saw on T.V. yesterday in Miami, in that largely Hispanic campus, that wonderful campus in Miami, it was extraordinary. The enthusiasm for him and the affection. And having watched her all of these years, you’re absolutely right, Chris–

CHUCK TODD:

You know–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

–she found her guy. She was a happy camper.

RACHEL MADDOW:

He’s not a progressive, but they will tell a very progressive story about his history. The party has moved to the left while he sort of always been a solid liberal.

CHUCK TODD:

Both of them are trying to–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

I feel like both Clinton and Kaine are trying to catch up to the party’s movement.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

That’s so true.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Well, on guns he was always there. He was heroic in Virginia on gun laws.

CHUCK TODD:

That they’re moving– and Michael, let me ask you this. The Trump camping says, “We love the Kaine pick.” And here’s their reasoning. They love the Kaine pick because it reinforces that they’re the political professionals, that here’s Tim Kaine, and all he’s done in life, is been in office for the last 25 years.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right.

CHUCK TODD:

And the whole point of Trump is Trump’s Mr. “I’m the total outsider.” If they want to double down on that, fine, go ahead. What do you say?

RACHEL MADDOW:

Except Mike Pence

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right, right, right.

CHUCK TODD:

They pay no attention to that. I brought that brought to them. I said, “What about Pence?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s the top of the ticket.”

MICHAEL STEELE:

“Ignore that man behind the curtain.”

CHUCK TODD:

What do you say to that? Did they have a point or not?

MICHAEL STEELE:

Well, they’ll have a– I think the broader point, is an interesting one. Because what he’s comparing himself– he’s comparing himself, Trump, to Kaine–

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

MICHAEL STEELE:

–and Clinton. So it’s me and against them.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Pence is not a part of that equation, necessarily.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah.

MICHAEL STEELE:

So when he’s talking about the maverick, the outsider, he’s– he’s assuming his ticket is total that.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Well, Pence wasn’t even a part of his own rollout.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

If you remember. And that was–

RACHEL MADDOW:

He couldn’t get a word in edgewise.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Hillary Clinton spoke about Tim Kaine–

MICHAEL STEELE:

I think their strength, Chuck, is gonna be on the argument– this notion that Tim Kaine is progressive is just not believable. And for a whole host of reasons. I think that’s an opening for a lot of folks on Trump’s side.

RACHEL MADDOW:

You can, there are element of his record that are not progressive, but on balance, I would argue that he is.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

I would argue that too.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

But one thing, the guy’s two doors from you, if you’re president. Look at the structure of the West Wing now. It’s not some guy that goes back to Maine like Lincoln’s first vice president. He or she is right with you.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

You want a good person two doors for you, somebody who has values. And it’s not just smart politics. I think what Hillary Clinton’s going to love having is a guy who’s a true blue good guy. And I think he is a progressive on all the moral issues–

CHUCK TODD:

Let’s sneak in a break here. When we come back, I want to get into the DNC e-mail situation. And I also want to get your guys’ reaction to some interesting comments from Donald Trump. Yeah, you know that guy that was at the start of the show. We’ll be right back.

***COMMERCIAL BREAK***

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back, panelists here. Before we jump to Trump, the DNC email leaks, Cleveland, we expected rowdiness, Never Trumpsters, and all that stuff. We expect order here. But I wonder, Rachel, if– look, I’m hearing from the Bernie bros. I’m in one of the emails just– I’m the complaint department here sometimes at NBC. Somebody was complaining about coverage. And I said, “Okay, let’s talk on the phone,” or whatever. But we didn’t do anything about it, because I get complaints about coverage every hour, every day.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

But I think Bernie supporters may like this place, at least outside. They may be upset, and they may do something about it.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah. I mean and, you know, there will be that big protest that Andrea was talking about today, to start things off. And there will be a lot, there will be hundreds of Bernie delegates insides the room. Now honestly, from the top, down, he said, “We’ve got to elect Hillary Clinton.” He’s been unequivocal about that, that’s the most important thing.

It’ll be interesting to see whether the rules fights and the platform fights end up, in the end, when there’s need to get nailed down with those votes, there is some dissent and chaos there. There might be.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

One thing is–

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to get out now?

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Well, look–

CHUCK TODD:

Not even gavel it in?

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

This is not a mystery story. This isn’t Colombo.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

We knew from the beginning, watching the debate schedule, put together by the DNC–

CHUCK TODD:

Sure.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

–that they were tilting the scales to Hillary Clinton. Middle of the night debates, Sunday morning — it was an absurd debate schedule. And it just said, “We’re for Hillary, we don’t want the new guy to get all the attention.”

ANDREA MITCHELL:

And what Bernie said to you is that she’s not going to be giving a speech. When does the party chair not give a speech at the convention? And apparently that is the case.

CHUCK TODD:

And then right now, though, they will gavel in.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Thank god we haven’t– her quitting right now before — I mean, the DNC’s gonna be running a big part of the ground game for the whole–

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Yeah.

RACHEL MADDOW:

You know, you don’t–

CHUCK TODD:

But I tell you, this–

RACHEL MADDOW:

It would be suicide for the chair to jump out now–

CHUCK TODD:

This doesn’t help her own fight for reelection, which I still think she’s going to be okay.

RACHEL MADDOW:

No, but–

CHUCK TODD:

It’s a district that she knows very well. But–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

But Bernie endorsed her opponent.

RACHEL MADDOW:

But her reelection fight is in her district.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Right.

RACHEL MADDOW:

It’s not to be the chair of the DNC, that’s next year.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Michael Steele, what’d you hear from Donald Trump? Did it make you feel better or worse about his chances?

MICHAEL STEELE:

Well, I think Donald Trump did a couple of things he needed to do. One was, and you could see it in the room that night, people began to say, “Okay, I can get there.” The speech that he gave, when you read it, seemed a lot darker and harsher than when he delivered it. He delivered it in a way–

RACHEL MADDOW:

I thought the opposite.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Yeah, yeah.

RACHEL MADDOW:

When reading it, I wasn’t freaked out.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Yeah.

RACHEL MADDOW:

And then, when I saw him give it, I pulled the covers up.

MICHAEL STEELE:

No, for me, it was the reverse. Because the reaction. I’m sitting in the room and I’m getting the reaction from the crowd.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Mmm.

MICHAEL STEELE:

And the reaction from the crowd was, “This guy is going to be a fighter.” And I think that’s a strong message for him coming out of this convention.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Rachel, you have never pulled the covers up.

RACHEL MADDOW:
Oh no, I meant proverbially

CHUCK TODD:
There’s a lot of personal information here. Woah, it’s Sunday morning, guys.

MICHAEL STEELE:

I thought he did what he needed to do, Chuck. I do.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Standing under those 15-foot-tall letters with Trump, and then his head comes up there. And then he spent 76 minutes screaming, red faced, about terrorism and death and destruction and “I’m the only one who can fix it”–

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

I think that was technical. I don’t think he knew how to read a script like that. I don’t think he had the ability to– his daughter knew how to do it. It’s tough to read a script in a conversational manner. So you end up doing this sort of scream thing.

RACHEL MADDOW:

But it takes an ego to turn a 30 minute script into a 78 minute rant.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

But he said that he was the person who would fix everything. And they’re focusing on that. But, you know, Kaine was focusing on that. You know, it is the “we” not the I. They’re comparing him to a dictator.

MICHAEL STEELE:

But the–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

It is the language and the delivery, Michael–

MICHAEL STEELE:

Don’t lose sight of the fact that a lot of Americans out there are saying it is the “we” who screwed us up to this point.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Yeah.

MICHAEL STEELE:

It is the we who’ve gotten us into this mess.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

It’s a different way of defining democracy, Michael.

MICHAEL STEELE:

So they’re looking for the I, someone who’s going to step forward as a leader, to get us through this mess. This is the bifurcation of the of the population, the voting population right now. And it’s going to be interesting to see which one of these arguments win–

RACHEL MADDOW:

Is this about the hunger for a strong man, is that what you’re talking about?

MICHAEL STEELE:
Yeah no, there really is Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW:
We’ve seen this around the world, it’s not supposed to be us.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

I’ve heard Bernie make your point.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Yes!

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

It’s that we have to reach outside the establishment to get the solution to these really bad economic problems affecting the working people of this country.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Same message. Different sides.

MICHAEL STEELE:
Same message.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Same message. The question is whether or not one man is supposed to deliver salvation for the country. We’re not supposed to be that kind of country.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to throw one more. He seemed, at least in the interview with me, he goes after Mitch McConnell, goes after Ted Cruz, goes after John Kasich.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

He is fearless in that regard.

CHUCK TODD:
He really is.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

He is not going to moderate himself.

RACHEL MADDOW:

You didn’t even ask about Kasich. And he’s bringing it up

CHUCK TODD:

No, exactly. He brought Kasich up himself.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

And another player to be named player, who, you know, remain — could be one of the senators like Jeff Flake. Look, the fact is that he is not playing by anybody’s ground rules except Donald Trump’s. What he said about N.A.T.O. was extraordinary because he doubled down on that. And the whole system of collect your security in Europe, if you’re in Poland today, you are not reassured–

CHUCK TODD:

What’s amazing is the Trump campaign tried to walk it back all last week on the N.A.T.O. stuff. And he’s basically saying, “Don’t walk it back.”

RACHEL MADDOW:

Even beyond N.A.T.O. to talk about Europe as a threat to America is what’s good for Europe is bad for America and we have an interest in Europe being weak and divided, they only got together to screw us? Like, hold on a second.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Yeah, it’ll play in Scranton. It’ll play up there in the Eerie, Pennsylvania it’ll play.

RACHEL MADDOW:

The European Union– came out of the way to try to not have World War III.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Because people think we’re being shoved around and exploited and he’s saying,

“I’m going to shove back.”

ANDREA MITCHELL:

They are our markets– markets, allies–

CHUCK TODD:

You guys great. I’m going to try to get another half hour. But let me sneak in this. We’ll be back in a moment with our– we’ll call it halftime segment. No, it’s Endgame Segment. And we’ll look at Hillary Clinton’s popularity compared to other Democratic nominees on the eve of their conventions.

***COMMERCIAL BREAK***

CHUCK TODD:

The panel never stops interacting here. Seriously we just went to a commercial break–

RACHEL MADDOW:

–wants more with France!

CHUCK TODD:

It’s endgame time. Look, I want to show you here very quickly some numbers, because it will help us judge whether this is a successful convention for Hillary Clinton. These are favorable ratings, personal favorable ratings, whether you’re right side up or upside down, from our NBC Wall Street Journal poll, for every Democrat going back to ’92. And as you can see, Hillary Clinton in the worst shape of any presumptive nominee going into their convention.

Now, let me show you what everybody else came through after their convention. So successful convention for Bill Clinton, successful one for Al Gore. Flat for John Kerry, successful, Barack Obama. Obviously, we’ll find out, for Hillary Clinton, what does she need to–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Well, what they are going to do is they’re going to have gauzy films, the same kind of films you saw in 1992, the same producers–

CHUCK TODD:

And JFK?

ANDREA MITCHELL:

They’re going to have all of these films, biography, résumé. They know that her résumé is not resonating with millennials. People know what she did, they don’t know– they know the list of what she was. They don’t know what she actually did, what she accomplished.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Yeah.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

They’re going to do all of that. The balance is going to be very different.

RACHEL MADDOW:

–because T.V. networks don’t always take the movies anymore–

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Well, they’re going to have to validators.

RACHEL MADDOW:

Yeah.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

They’re going to have people on that podium behind it who are going to talk about things she has done for them. And it’s going to be very much all about her and much less about taking down Trump

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

I think the magic moment in this convention’s going to be Thursday night. And a lot of women, and a lot of men, too, are going to see Hillary Clinton as the first party nominee, who’s probably going to be like the president. She has the advantage right now. And there are going to be misty eyes all across the country.

And any men at that moment who make a wisecrack are going to be guaranteeing another vote for Hillary Clinton. I think it’s a very emotional moment for people. They’ve haven’t quite got to it because of all is mishegas that’s gone on this year. I think it’s going to be magical. And if Hillary Clinton just stands there with a little emotion, this is an amazing historic moment.

CHUCK TODD:

Michael was the Republican convention too anti-Clinton and not enough pro-Trump?

MICHAEL STEELE:

No. The Republican convention had to go anti-Clinton–

CHUCK TODD:

Had to do that?

MICHAEL STEELE:

–because of the Trump issues.

CHUCK TODD:

What about this one?

MICHAEL STEELE:

This one? I was thinking, as you guys were talking about Barack Obama and talking about Hillary Clinton being likable enough, this is going to be a convention in which they’re going to showcase her so you can like her. Because people, those numbers show, don’t like her. So it’s going to be everything you just said, Chris, plus more. The problem is what happens afterwards. And that’s where Hillary Clinton’s going to have to contine .

CHUCK TODD:

Here’s an out question for all of you. Besides Hillary Clinton’s speech, what will be the other buzziest speech or speaker when we walk away from this convention?

RACHEL MADDOW:

We’re going to have a huge one on night one. Bernie is a big deal.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Bernie.

RACHEL MADDOW:

The Democratic Party is going through a transformation. Liberals are having their moment. And this convention has to reflect it.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Every Democratic convention I can remember, going back to, God, ’64, the best speech was never given by the nominee, whether it’s Bobby Kennedy or it’s Jesse Jackson, or it’s Mario Cuomo.

MICHAEL STEELE:

Right.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

The candidates never have been able to deliver the best speech. So I would bet on Bernie.

RACHEL MADDOW:

It was Trump Jr. last week.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

Bernie or President Obama.

ANDREA MITCHELL:

Michelle Obama and Barack Obama on day two.

CHUCK TODD:

I think it’s Barack Obama on Wednesday night. I think it’s going to be to Hillary Clinton what Bill Clinton was to Barack Obama four years ago. All right. That’s all for this Sunday morning.

CHRIS MATTHEWS:

We agree.

CHUCK TODD:

I’ll be hosting a special edition of Meet the Press Daily tonight at 5:00 Eastern on MSNBC. I know that’s what everybody on this table will be watching. And then, throughout the week, I’ll be joined by my colleagues Lester Holt and Savannah Guthrie right here at The Wells Fargo Center for convention coverage on the network beginning at 10:00 Eastern, 7:00 Pacific. If you missed it last week, you should be regretting it. Watch us this week. And of course we’ll be back next Sunday. Because if it is Sunday, Meet the Press.

* * *END OF TRANSCRIPT* * *

For more information, contact:

Olivia Petersen
NBC News
o: (202) 885-4159
c: (804) 938-3810
e: olivia.petersen@nbcuni.com

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NBC NEWS’ “MEET THE PRESS WITH CHUCK TODD”

“Meet the Press” is where newsmakers come to make news — setting the political agenda and spotlighting the impact Washington decision-making has on people across the country. “Meet the Press” reaches more than 3 million people every Sunday through its broadcasts and millions more through NBCNews.com, Flipboard, and social media platforms. Chuck Todd is the moderator of “Meet the Press” and John Reiss is the executive producer.

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