Video of Full, Wide-Ranging Interview Online at MeetThePressNBC.com
Below is the full transcript of “Meet the Press” moderator Chuck Todd’s wide-ranging, exclusive Sunday interview with Republican presidential candidate former Gov. Jeb Bush (R-FL).
Tune into Todd’s extensive sit-down interview with Bush this morning on “Meet the Press”; the full 30-minute conversation is available online this morning: http://nbcnews.to/1RGY2gN.
MANDATORY CREDIT: NBC NEWS’ “MEET THE PRESS” // CHUCK TODD
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CHUCK TODD:
Governor Bush, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JEB BUSH:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you still want to be president?
JEB BUSH:
I do. I do. I see great possibilities for our country. I honestly believe we’re on the verge of greatness. We have to fix some really big, complex things, and I have the leadership skills to do it, and I’m fired up about that. That’s what motivates me.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you understand why a bunch of supporters think that there’s something missing?
JEB BUSH:
No, I don’t–
CHUCK TODD:
The fire’s missing?
JEB BUSH:
No, I don’t.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you know why they think that?
JEB BUSH:
Probably because they watch the cable shows and they read the political press. But if they followed me on the campaign trail, like last week in New Hampshire where we had 300 people totally connected, totally believing in me, I think they would see a different candidate. I’ve just got to be able to break through the clutter of all the punditry class, and I think I can do that.
CHUCK TODD:
What happened at the debate? What happened in that moment? You made your point with Senator Rubio, and you didn’t fire back.
JEB BUSH:
Well, I got cut off. That debate was a really weird debate just because you didn’t get a chance to continue on. I literally got cut off by all three of them saying, “Next question, next question.” The basic point with Marco isn’t that he’s not a good person or he’s not a gifted politician; everybody can see that. It’s that I have proven leadership skills.
I got to be governor of a state and accomplish big things. And in this era of gridlock, it’s really hard to break through, and I think he’s given up. And I think that’s the wrong thing to do. This is about public service, about solving problems. If you look at the three people on the stage from the United States Senate, all three of them have a combined two bills that became law that they’ve sponsored. If you look at Hillary Clinton, in ten years, three bills she sponsored that became law. This is the gridlock that I’m running to try to break up. I can change the culture in Washington.
CHUCK TODD:
Did you watch, re-watch the debate?
JEB BUSH:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
You didn’t?
JEB BUSH:
I’ve been busy campaigning.
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t feel, you’ve said you’re not a good debater. Do you want to be a better one?
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, I do. Absolutely. And I–
CHUCK TODD:
So how do you do that?
JEB BUSH:
–will be better. Look, I know that I got to get better at doing the debate. I’m a grinder. I mean, when I see that I’m not doing something well then I reset and I get better. And I’m–
CHUCK TODD:
Tell me about–
JEB BUSH:
–going to be better.
CHUCK TODD:
–the reset.
JEB BUSH:
Well, I’m going to do what you have to do. This is not debating. I mean–
CHUCK TODD:
I understand.
JEB BUSH:
–whatever it’s called, it’s certainly not debating. Because I can complete a sentence in the English language pretty well, and I have ideas that will lift people up. My focus in the debate, I will change the whole conversation. So if someone asks me about Fantasy Football next time, which was kind of bizarre if you think about it, I’ll talk about the people I’ve met that are really worried that they have declining income. They’re worried about their children having more opportunities.
And I’m campaigning hard amongst people that truly believe that their future is not bright, and it breaks my heart because this extraordinary country has never been this way. And if we fix how we tax and regulate, fix the broken systems that are all around us, this world will be a time of abundance. So I’m going to change the conversation on my terms.
CHUCK TODD:
Well you know, a week ago, you seemed extraordinarily frustrated, and you’re obviously frustrated now. Frustrated with the punditry class, a little frustrated with the debate.
JEB BUSH:
No, look–
CHUCK TODD:
But you went off. You said, “I got plenty of cool things to do. I don’t–“
JEB BUSH:
No, that was completely–
CHUCK TODD:
–“need this.” What did that mean?
JEB BUSH:
–taken out of context. I got a standing ovation in front of 500 people, not all of whom were my supporters. This was Tim Scott’s deal. Ask him. I mean,it was, there was a real connection there. What I was saying don’t elect me if you want to maintain the gridlock. It’s not about me. It’s not about the personalities on the stage.
It’s about fixing how we tax and regulate so that you can rise up. That’s my mission. But don’t vote for me if you think that I’m going to be part of that system and because I’m president I’ll think that’s a really cool thing. That’s not what this is about. It’s about leading. It’s about public service. It’s about fixing broken things that I know how to do because I got to do it as governor. And that’s the story I told. It’s easy in the digitized world to take things completely out of context. I’m serious: If you go back and ask the people in that room, I think you’d find a completely different mindset.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I hear you, but I’ll tell you this: You said you wanted to run a joyful campaign.
JEB BUSH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Has it been joyful?
JEB BUSH:
It has been joyful. It has been, yeah. Am I frustrated–
CHUCK TODD:
It hasn’t looked like it. I know, and I get it. But–
JEB BUSH:
It has been. It has been. I’ve had incredible experiences with people who believe in me, who believe that I can fix these things, and it inspires me. I’ve seen people,I mean, the town hall meeting, 300 people showed up at this beautiful place in New Hampshire. It’s a great place to campaign.
There, by the way, you can actually complete a sentence and ask a person a question. You can listen. You can have a dialogue with people. I don’t think they follow all the things that people in other parts of the country follow. They want to hear the candidates, hear their heart, and hear their ideas. And I think I’m going to win New Hampshire because of that, by the way.
CHUCK TODD:
I just, I understand you’ve brought up Senator McCain a lot because you’ve talked about what happened to his campaign eight years ago. People wrote him off, and look what he did. He basically moved his campaign to New Hampshire. You’re spending three days in New Hampshire. Is that what we’re about to see? Are you going to be just camping out there?
JEB BUSH:
No, no. The differences are that we have a national campaign. I just signed the forms to get on the ballot in six other states. We’re totally committed to a national campaign. But February’s going to matter. So I’m going to Iowa on Saturday and I’ll be three days in New Hampshire. That’s been our plan from the very beginning. New Hampshire is an important state because it influences the rest of the early states for sure.
CHUCK TODD:
Some of the things you’ve said about this campaign this year, you said about the 2012 campaign. You said this in a speech after watching a couple of debates in 2012: “I used to be a conservative, and I watch these debates and I’m wondering. I don’t think I’ve changed, but it’s a little troubling sometimes when people are appealing to people’s fears and emotion rather than trying to get them to look over the horizon for a broader perspective. And that’s kind of where we are.” That was Jeb Bush in February–
JEB BUSH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
–of 2012. Sounds like you right now.
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, that’s my speech.
CHUCK TODD:
Party hasn’t changed.
JEB BUSH:
That’s my speech in Tampa.
CHUCK TODD:
But this party hasn’t changed.
JEB BUSH:
That’s my speech in Tampa. That’s exactly the speech I’m going to give on Monday, tomorrow, to talk about how we need to be hopeful and optimistic, have an aspirational message. I don’t think conservatives are going to win the presidency unless we campaign with our arms wide open, inclusive–
CHUCK TODD:
That message, that’s not the way–
JEB BUSH:
It’s–
CHUCK TODD:
–Dr. Carson or Donald Trump are campaigning–
JEB BUSH:
I don’t know. Dr. Carson, you’re right about Trump for sure. Dr. Carson I think has a more hopeful message, and others do as well. And I just know that’s how we’re going to win, and that’s who I am. It doesn’t matter anything else. I’m not a grievance candidate, I’m a candidate that believes we’re on the verge of greatness but it’s going to require the leadership skills to fix things.
And that’s my message. It’s how I started my campaign in Kendall, where you grew up. And that’s what I’m going to do tomorrow in a speech in Tampa. And that’s going to be the basis of my campaign, for sure. I’m glad I was consistent. I didn’t realize–
CHUCK TODD:
You said something else to Charlie Rose later that year. This is in 2012. You said, “This was probably my time,” referring to 2012. “Although I don’t know. Given kind of what I believe and how I believe it, I’m not sure I would have been successful as candidate either. These are different times than just six years ago when I last ran, or even longer than that.” That’s what a lot of people have observed, and wondering has this party moved away from you?
JEB BUSH:
No, it hasn’t. And our country has moved away from us, and that’s what, and we need to get back our country. We need to win. And I think I have the skills to win. You look at the record of Hillary Clinton and she’s a smart person, she’s talented, but she has no record of accomplishment. Are we going to put up someone who doesn’t have a record of accomplishment against her? Or someone who cut taxes every year, totaling $19 billion, reduced the government workforce by 11%?
I turned this place upside down, not Miami so much, but Florida. And the state led the nation in job growth seven out of eight years. We were one of two states to be triple-A bond rated. You see the gridlock in Washington and compare it to a conservative reformer like I was as governor? I think that’s a pretty compelling story.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you understand why conservatives are skeptical of a guy named Bush?
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, sure. I mean, a lot of people are. I’ve got to go earn it. This isn’t done by, like we say in Miami, (Spanish). It’s not by decree, you’ve gotta go earn it. And all of the tribulations of a campaign, and we’re having our share, there’s no doubt about it. I have enough self-awareness to know that this is the bumpy time of a campaign.
This pales by comparison to being commander-in-chief. I wear this because I think about what it is to be president. This is given to me by a mom of a marine who was killed in action in Afghanistan. There’s a lot tougher things that you have to do than debating, going to nine debates in a Republican primary. There’s big things that presidents have to do. So this is the process. I totally understand it, and I’m more than prepared to fight on.
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t seem to like the process though.
JEB BUSH:
I like the process. I do.
CHUCK TODD:
You do?
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, you saw me when the roundtable–
CHUCK TODD:
I did? Well, then–
JEB BUSH:
–discussion about domestic violence, about the drug addiction. There are times actually for a policy wonk to learn.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, you did seem to enjoy yourself at that event. And it’s–
JEB BUSH:
Well, that’s kind of a tough–
CHUCK TODD:
–because you learned something. I mean, you feel like you’re learning something about a community.
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, so this is how I wake up each day: Listening, learning, and then gaining the ability to lead.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, here we go. Welcome to Miami.
JEB BUSH:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Your campaign, there was a leaked memo, 112-page memo, and there was a big chunk about why Marco Rubio wouldn’t be a good nominee. And you went through sort of all of the opposition research on that. That’s not a hopeful campaign tactic.
JEB BUSH:
I didn’t see it. I’m focused on a hopeful–
CHUCK TODD:
It’s your campaign.
JEB BUSH:
I didn’t see it. I didn’t see it. I don’t know–
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t know this memo? You don’t know this PowerPoint–
JEB BUSH:
No. Well, I read about it when it was leaked for sure. I didn’t know about the PowerPoint. It wasn’t presented–
CHUCK TODD:
Is this something–
JEB BUSH:
–to me.
CHUCK TODD:
–you want your campaign involved with?
JEB BUSH:
I want them to focus on winning New Hampshire, winning South Carolina, winning Iowa, winning Nevada. That’s our first mission. I want to unify the party and I’m focused on that, I’m focused on winning the primary and it’s got to be about me first and foremost.
Look, you’ve been around a long time. You know that comparing and contrasting is part of this. But the basis of my campaign is that we can fix these problems and people can be lifted out of poverty and the great middle can get rising income again. That’s the purpose of my campaign. That’s what I focus on each and every day.
CHUCK TODD:
What’s the line here though? When is it that you put party before individual if you’re concerned, for instance, that Donald Trump might get the nomination and lose to Hillary Clinton? When do you get to that point in your–
JEB BUSH:
We’ve got to get to the second half of the game here, man. We’re in the second quarter. I mean, this time eight years ago, Hillary Clinton was 25 points ahead of Barack Obama. I don’t remember people saying, “Obama, you’ve got to get out of the race.” Or people telling everybody else other than Rudy Giuliani, “It’s time. It’s time to get out to unit behind the candidate.” This is really early. People are going to be able to decide who are the best candidates as we go forward, and I believe I’ll be one of those.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the first six months of this year, too much time was spent by you just raising big dollars, doing the super PAC thing, and not enough time reintroducing yourself?
JEB BUSH:
That’s what I’m doing now, and we’re in the second quarter, again. Look, all I can tell you is that the big challenge for our country isn’t about the campaign, it’s not about the personalities on the stage, it’s not about who has the great sound bite. It’s about who has the ideas to be able to lift people out of poverty and to create rising income for the middle class.
And I have those ideas. And I also have a proven record to do it. That’s the story, that’s the Jeb story, that’s the one I want people to hear. And that’s what I focus on. The process, I respect. I understand it. But I don’t focus on it. I have other people, smart people in the campaign that deal with all that. My mission is to be able to share who I am and give people a sense that I got a backbone, I got a heart, and I got a brain.
CHUCK TODD:
Why hasn’t that penetrated yet?
JEB BUSH:
Because it’s early. It’s early. Patience. Got to be patient.
CHUCK TODD:
What did Yogi Berra say? “It’s getting late early this time”? Do you feel that way?
JEB BUSH:
I don’t feel that way at all. We’re starting in November. We’ve got three months to go for the campaign. I’m going to run hard and I feel good about it. When I have these events where you’re one on one, where you’re listening to people, talking to people, events that, town hall meetings that are growing in New Hampshire, I feel pretty good about where we are. And we just started to advertise and the Right to Rise PAC seems to be doing advertising as well. All of that’s good.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you happy with their advertising?
JEB BUSH:
I haven’t seen the–
CHUCK TODD:
With what you’ve seen?
JEB BUSH:
Actually, I was in the gym at 5:00, the Hilton Garden Inn in Manchester, and it kind of warmed my heart–
CHUCK TODD:
I know that hotel.
JEB BUSH:
–to see–
CHUCK TODD:
Did you think they’re good ads?
JEB BUSH:
I like the ad. I like the validator ad, the one I’ve seen, where it talks about people that didn’t even support me to say, “Hey, this guy can lead. This guy had a clear vision. He had a spine,” which is what we need in Washington. Man, we’ve got a lot of people putting their finger up in the air, wondering if it’s popular to be on a particular position. And they’ll go into the witness protection program in a heartbeat if the popular will kind of turns, if the winds change.
That’s not what we need right now. We need someone grounded in principle, conservative philosophy in my case, that has the ability to go from point A to point B to move the needle to help people.
CHUCK TODD:
You did say something that some may say is prescient: That you’re willing to lose the primary to focus on the general.
JEB BUSH:
I’m not going to prey on people’s fears. I’m not going to prey on their angst. I’m going to offer solutions. That’s what I meant by that. And we have a lot of candidates that I think the easy out is to say, you know, “Follow me because I’m angry too.” That’s not going to win the general election. It’s important to understand people’s frustrations, they’re legitimate. But the only way we win is to draw people towards our cause. And you can do that and be true to yourself.
CHUCK TODD:
And you even said working with Democrats, saying you’ll do that, is unpopular with your party.
JEB BUSH:
How are we going to solve these problems? There’s no way. I mean, all the big issues in American history have been solved by a strong president working across the aisle unifying the country. We now have a divider-in-chief who pushes people down that disagrees with him. And I think Hillary Clinton, the exact same thing. I thought it was striking that the leading–
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t think your party’s been–
JEB BUSH:
–Democratic candidate–
CHUCK TODD:
–divisive too?
JEB BUSH:
Yeah. No, it has. I admit that. But I’m looking at the Democrats where Hillary Clinton says that her biggest enemies are Republicans– man, that sets the stage for a really phenomenal time if she’s elected. If 50% of the American people are her enemies, how can she lead? How could she solve problems?
We need someone that actually believes that our ideas are strong enough and powerful enough to convince people to join us. That’s how Ronald Reagan did it, that’s how great things happen in this country. We need to restore that for sure.
CHUCK TODD:
Some conservatives though think that, because you gave an award to Hillary Clinton, that you’re not going to be tough enough to take her on.
JEB BUSH:
Oh, man. I mean, that’s just a joke. The National Constitution Center, the center that promotes the Constitution of the United States, that I was the chairman of, replacing Bill Clinton, who replaced my dad? What an honor for me. I fell in love with the Constitution yet again.
And the fact that you would give out an award to someone that I don’t agree with? Have we lost it? Are we that far along as a country that everything is to be demonized? That’s going to make it hard to solve problems. I just reject that kind of attitude out of hand. We’re never going to win, and more importantly we’re never going to fix the things that people desperately want us to fix, and that should be the mission for the next president. And if I’m elected, I promise you that will be my mission.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you feel like you’re running, is there a sense of duty in your family to be running?
JEB BUSH:
My duty is I think about people that are saying, “I can’t get a job because I have health care challenges in my family that make it hard for me to get a job. And the exchanges aren’t doing what they promised. It’s too costly for me.” I worry about people like that.
I worry about kids that have student loans up here, and they can’t get a job. I worry about people stuck in poverty and they want their children to break out by going to a high-performing charter school and they’re on a waiting list. These are the people I worry about. I don’t worry about the process, to be honest with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Because there are some folks who will sit there and say you’re frustrated because, boy, a member of the Bush family can’t believe they’re losing.
JEB BUSH:
No. I don’t even think about that. I love my dad. I’d kill for him. I’d go to prison for him because I love him so much; thankfully, I haven’t had the need to do that.
CHUCK TODD:
He seems to be really upset about Donald Trump.
JEB BUSH:
He’s, he’s, I mean he’s -My contribution to my dad’s life is that he’s gotten fired up again. He’s not watching CSI, he’s watching–
CHUCK TODD:
He’s watching a different reality show?
JEB BUSH:
He’s watching the shows, as Donald Trump calls them, and he’s enjoying getting back in the game. I love my family, but I’ve got to go earn it. I’ve known that from the very beginning. I knew this was going to be hard. I knew it was going to be a challenge, and it should be. Being president of the United States is not an easy job. It’s not a cushy job. It’s not flying around on Air Force One. It’s making tough choices on behalf of millions of people.
CHUCK TODD:
The president last week, and I thought about you when he said this, came out against standardized testing for schools. Said maybe it isn’t working necessarily, this idea of–
JEB BUSH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
–mandatory testing. You brought testing to this state, and I wonder, there’s a whole movement against it now. It’s part of the Common Core, argument about Common Core, not all of it, but part of it. Have we gotten the testing thing wrong?
JEB BUSH:
I think–
CHUCK TODD:
Have you rethought it?
JEB BUSH:
No. Well, I didn’t hear the whole context of his speech. I don’t think he was saying get rid of all testing. I think he was saying we’re over-testing.
CHUCK TODD:
We’re over-testing. And pulling–
JEB BUSH:
And that’s true. I think that’s–
CHUCK TODD:
–back with the mandatory testing.
JEB BUSH:
–true. And in Florida, I know for a fact because I follow it here more than other states, there’s been an effort to pull back on the number of tests–
CHUCK TODD:
Dade County’s–
JEB BUSH:
–for school districts.
CHUCK TODD:
–pulled the plug on testing, haven’t they?
JEB BUSH:
Well, most of the tests are county/district tests, not state tests. You could have one meaningful test that could accurately measure the status of where a child is as it relates to math and reading, and you could be done with it. We don’t have to teach to the test, we don’t have to have over-testing. But we need to know where students are.
And I don’t know if the president’s saying we’d get rid of all tests. He’d be wrong about that. But the key is to make sure it’s state driven. We don’t need to have a federal government creating the test, or whether the curriculum content– all that stuff ought to be state driven.
CHUCK TODD:
I wonder if this campaign against Common Core is not a example of how politics has gone off the rails.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you look at the campaign to sort of undo or demonize Common Core as sort of a metaphor of, like, what’s happened to American politics? Because it is amazing to me: Common Core’s basic premise was state driven, Florida standards. States could go higher standards if they wanted. Federal government simply wanted to reward, at the time, they thought they were just going to reward states that were doing this. And it just–
JEB BUSH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you look at it and say what’s wrong with American politics?
JEB BUSH:
I look at it as a lot of people not believing in the federal government anymore, not trusting the federal government, believing that the federal government is–
CHUCK TODD:
Is there anything wrong with–
JEB BUSH:
–over-reach–
CHUCK TODD:
–what Arnie Duncan tried to do?
JEB BUSH:
The only thing wrong would be to say, “If you’re going to get our money, you have to take Common Core standards.” And there was and out. You could have had higher standards, or equally high standards, but that’s what lift people up. And the simple fact is–
CHUCK TODD:
Should it have though? You know what I mean?
JEB BUSH:
I just don’t–
CHUCK TODD:
I get that beating up the federal government– but should we be in that place?
JEB BUSH:
We need high standards, that’s what we need. And the–
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. So how do you encourage it?
JEB BUSH:
–commonality is not as important as the highness of the standards, and they need to be assessed accurately, and we need real accountability around it. And it–
CHUCK TODD:
So why shouldn’t the federal government–
JEB BUSH:
–ought to be state driven.
CHUCK TODD:
–help incentivize it though?
JEB BUSH:
I just don’t think people believe the federal government. Whenever they get their claws into something, they’re going to then start mandating how it’s got to be done, and that’s what we’ve seen kind of creeping up. And when I’m president, I would be a strong supporter for higher standards and believing in education reform because it’s the great equalizer in our society.
CHUCK TODD:
But you wouldn’t use the tools of the federal government–
JEB BUSH:
No, I would use–
CHUCK TODD:
–to help?
JEB BUSH:
I’d be a partner. I’d convene. I would let people know the fact that about a third of our kids are college or career ready. We’re not fooling anybody. That’s a huge problem for our country. But I think the best place for this to be worked out is at the local and state level, where the federal government can be a partner.
I mean, if the states want to try a new approach for early childhood education, the federal monies ought to go to support those reforms. Miami’s got a great early childhood program, but that’s not how it works. Or Title I money for low-income kids. Instead of saying, “Well, it’s just got to go to the beast,” if you will, why not try innovative new approaches? My instinct though on every one of these policy areas is it ought to be bottom up not top down.
CHUCK TODD:
1996 you told Larry King that you didn’t think Bob Dole should have a litmus test for cabinet appointments or judicial appointments. That one issue shouldn’t do it, at the time–
JEB BUSH:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
–referring to abortion. You said, “You know what? There’s 100 things that make somebody a conservative, not just one issue.”
JEB BUSH:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you still believe that? No litmus tests?
JEB BUSH:
I don’t believe in litmus tests, but I’m going to make sure that my appointments to the Supreme Court would have a consistent proven record of judicial restraint.
CHUCK TODD:
So you’re not going to ask a potential Supreme Court justice if they would overturn Roe v. Wade?
JEB BUSH:
No, but I would ask deep questions about judicial philosophy, and then make sure that the person had a proven record. I think the lessons of the last few years is that you’ve got to fight for your candidates that you nominate, and they ought to have a clear, consistent record so that you have a higher assurance they’re not going to wander off.
CHUCK TODD:
You had said that, at the time, you didn’t think that there was a broad enough consensus to fight for a constitutional amendment against abortion. You still feel that way?
JEB BUSH:
I think that what we ought to do is elect conservatives, like myself and others, that believe that life is a gift from God and life is precious. And I’ll just share you my record, and it was a record of accomplishment. Choose Life’s license plate. We were the only state that funded crisis pregnancy centers with state dollars. Parental notification. Ending partial birth abortion. Expanding the adoptions.
These are the places where this fight takes place each and every day. De-funding Planned Parenthood at the state level. And I’m proud of my pro life record, and it’s from beginning to end. I mean, the end-of-life issues are going to become more important as well going forward because of the aging of our population.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaking of life, have you changed your mind on the death penalty?
JEB BUSH:
I’m conflicted. I am. It was the law of the land when I was governor, and I faithfully dealt with it. To be honest with you, it is not a deterrent anymore because it’s seldom used. It clogs up the courts, it costs a ton of money. And–
CHUCK TODD:
Are you one of those that look at the fiscal part of it and say, “You know what? Maybe it makes more fiscal sense–“
JEB BUSH:
Here’s the one–
CHUCK TODD:
–“to not do it”?
JEB BUSH:
–thing, and it’s hard for me, as a human being, to sign the death warrant, to be honest with you. I’m informed by my faith in many things, and this is one of them. So I have to admit that I’m conflicted about this. But here’s the deal, this happens in rare cases where the death penalty’s given out and you meet family members that have lost a loved one and it’s still in their heart. It’s etched in their soul. And this is the way that they get closure? I get more comfortable with it, to be honest with you.
But we should reform it. If it’s to be used as a deterrent, it has to be reformed. It can’t take 25 years. That does no one any good. Neither the victims nor the state is solving this problem with that kind of tangled judicial process.
CHUCK TODD:
So you’re still in favor of it, but?
JEB BUSH:
Yeah, but I’m just saying, look, this is life, Chuck. It’s not all either/or. Sometimes you can see both sides. And I believe life is truly a gift from God, and innocent life particularly should be protected at all cost, for sure. But people that commit these crimes, justice can’t be denied. And it shouldn’t be delayed. And maybe there’s a better way to do this where victims feel as though they’re being served, because that should be front and center, the first obligation of the state.
CHUCK TODD:
One quick follow on abortion. What exceptions are you comfortable with on abortion?
JEB BUSH:
My views haven’t changed. I believe in the exceptions of rape and incest and the life of the mother, of course.
CHUCK TODD:
And is there a line on health? What is that line on life and health of the mother?
JEB BUSH:
Well, the life of the mother, not health of the mother.
CHUCK TODD:
The Syria decision by the president–
JEB BUSH:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
–to put some boots on the ground. You have advocated a little more of a robust response in Syria. What would you be doing? Would you be putting more of these special forces–
JEB BUSH:
Well, first of–
CHUCK TODD:
–on the ground?
JEB BUSH:
–all, I’d have a strategy that would be outlined. The president has really openly, honestly said two times in the last year that he doesn’t have a strategy. It’s this incrementalism that I’m troubled with by the president. He should speak with authority about what the strategy is.
I do applaud him for engagement with the special operators, but we can’t get into a quagmire. There should be a real strategy to take out ISIS and to take out Assad. This has all been made a lot more complicated with the Russian involvement.
CHUCK TODD:
What would you–
JEB BUSH:
Safe zones–
CHUCK TODD:
Is it ISIS or Assad, or do you go–
JEB BUSH:
It’s both.
CHUCK TODD:
–both?
JEB BUSH:
It’s both.
CHUCK TODD:
So you would be pursuing a strategy of getting rid of Assad and dealing with ISIS?
JEB BUSH:
And having a political solution that could create stability in a place that is tragically lacking it. 4 million Syrian refugees; 250,000 people killed by both sides. Christians being murdered because of their faith. Moderate Muslims that believe in their faith that are being raped and held as slaves. I mean, this is a tragic case of inaction by our own country and chaos in this place.
And so I think we need to be engaged with safe zones and air power to be protecting the safe zones, both for the refugees, as well as a fighting force. That there should be a unified effort in the region. The Saudis and the Turks and others need to join us. And the Europeans, seeing the consequence of millions of refugees coming towards them, should be engaged as well. And we should be the leaders. This is what America does best.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you accept some of the analysis that says without the invasion of Iraq we wouldn’t have ISIS?
JEB BUSH:
No, I don’t. ISIS was created after Al Qaeda in Iraq was taken out.
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t think losing the stability of the strong men in the Middle East, no matter what we thought about them, Qaddafi, Saddam, Assad.
JEB BUSH:
I think–
CHUCK TODD:
There is this argument, that says, that some in your party–
JEB BUSH:
That’s a convenient–
CHUCK TODD:
–Donald Trump is one of them–
JEB BUSH:
Donald Trump. That’s a convenient argument.
CHUCK TODD:
Even Ted Cruz is one of them.
JEB BUSH:
That’s a convenient argument, I think. I think the better argument is the surge worked. A fragile Iraq existed. Had we kept 5,000 or 10,000 troops there, had we engaged politically to show support to the central government, had we also showed support to the Kurds and armed them directly, we would have a very different circumstance as it relates to ISIS. The caliphate was created after Al Qaeda was taken out by the heroic efforts of men and women led by David Petraeus–
CHUCK TODD:
So if the surge worked, do you think we need a new surge in Syria and Iraq?
JEB BUSH:
A different surge. I think what we need to do now is to do what the president is kind of tepidly moving towards which is to embed with the Iraqi military to provide support. Although this announcement didn’t include this, I think we need to arm the Iraqi Kurd. I think we need to re engage with the tribal leaders. But we need to make sure that Iraq is ultimately leading the effort to take out ISIS in their territory.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, you brought up General Petraeus. I’m going to bring up a name, another general, last question. General Stanley McChrystal has a favorite interview question: What would someone who doesn’t like you say about you?
JEB BUSH:
I think people in Florida would have said, “It’s my way or the highway.”
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, that comes up a lot. Why are they wrong? Or why–
JEB BUSH:
Well, I fought–
CHUCK TODD:
–did they get that impression?
JEB BUSH:
I fought. I fought. I fought for my beliefs–
CHUCK TODD:
So some of that is true?
JEB BUSH:
It is true. And at the end of it, people respected me. I left with–
CHUCK TODD:
It’s not a compromiser though.
JEB BUSH:
Huh?
CHUCK TODD:
“My way or the highway,” is not a compromiser.
JEB BUSH:
Well, because I had an environment where I could reach, I could drive, I could change the agenda because I had friends that supported me. And at the end, I had a 67% approval rating when I left. This is a purple state, as you know. Half a million more Democrats than Republicans. I won double-digit in my reelection. I got 60% of the Hispanic vote because people respected me because I had a heart for them.
I fought for my ideas. People knew I wasn’t doing this because I was the big guy on the stage. They knew that I had a heart for people. I’m releasing a book on Monday called Reply All and it’s really the essence of the servant leadership that I had as governor of this state.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Bush, I’ll leave it there.
JEB BUSH:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you, sir.
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NBC News
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