WHEN: Today, Thursday, February 8, 2024
WHERE: CNBC’s “Squawk Box”
Following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC exclusive interview with Alphabet & Google CEO Sundar Pichai on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” (M-F, 6AM-9AM ET) today, Thursday, February 8. Following is a link to video on CNBC.com:
All references must be sourced to CNBC.
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: Meantime, we’ve got some breaking news to bring you as we hit 8:00 this morning. Google’s Bard is now changing its name to Gemini. And the tech giant is launching Gemini Advanced. It’s a paid option and it’s even more of an advanced version of its AI model, to compete with ChatGPT. In an exclusive interview, I spoke with Alphabet and Google CEO Sundar Pichai about these developments and the news, and I started out by asking him about why the name change?
SUNDAR PICHAI: For us, you know, Gemini is our approach overall in terms of how we are building our most capable and safe and responsible AI models, it’s the frontier of the technology we are pushing along. And Bard was the most direct way people could interact with our models, right? And so, it made sense to just evolve it to be Gemini, because they’re actually talking directly to the underlying Gemini model when you use it. And I think it will also be the way by which we will keep advancing our models and users can experience it directly. And so, we thought the name change made sense.
SORKIN: You’re also introducing Gemini Advanced. This is Google’s answer to ChatGPT Plus. How does it stand apart? How does it compare in your mind?
PICHAI: Well, Gemini Advanced has access to Ultra 1.0, which is our most capable model to the date. To me, look, I think it’s exciting, because for people really are using these products as a power user, a real collaborative partner, maybe in a professional context, maybe using it for coding. It just gives you more capabilities, it’s particularly good at complex inquiries, mult-turn inquiries. It has very good workspace integration. It is built from the ground-up to be natively multi-models. So, when you attach images and inquiry, it really shines. You can use a Gemini app on your phone and say, tell me more about what I’m seeing on my screen. So, it’s really capable along those dimensions.
SORKIN: What’s the biggest improvement that you think has been made? And was there a moment at which they brought you the latest model, and there was some prompt you put into it and said, okay, we’ve done something here?
PICHAI: For me, it was really when you give a series of images, it really makes sense of it, right? It’s almost understanding it as video and — and can answer questions related to that. So, it kind of shows, because the first time natively in the training data, we included not just text, audio, images, video, code, and so that plays out in the model when you test it that way. So it was kind of, gives you a window into the future because as humans —
SORKIN: What was —
PICHAI: We see the world like the richness of information in front of us. And, you know, so we are getting our models to behave in that same way and I think that represents the future frontier.
SORKIN: What was the biggest hurdle in terms of this — this upgrade cycle?
PICHAI: You know, for us, honestly, it is — it was a large model training, testing it for safety, and being able to deploy it at scale and doing that. But today’s — we’re giving it to consumers. We’ll share more details for developers and enterprises. And so, bringing a model at scale and also training our next versions of these models. And so, I view ’24 as our Gemini era, the beginning of our Gemini era.
SORKIN: How are you using it? You’ve got an opportunity to be playing around with this stuff before all of us. So, are there any interesting use cases in the Pichai family household?
PICHAI: Look, we’ve been having fun with it. You know, I definitely, I’m brushing up on my coding skills, a little bit here and there. Exciting use case. A friend of mine showed me, he was trying to put his house up for sale, you know, put a few pictures in it and ask to write a copy for it. And it understood the architecture of the home. It looked at the furnishings. It definitely wrote a better copy than either of us could have. And I find interesting things on my phone I’m looking at. You know, I just ask about it and it can, it can give me added information. So, all of that has been really fascinating to see.
SORKIN: You are very familiar with the competition with Microsoft, having built Chrome, many, many years ago, which was in competition back in the day with Internet Explorer. I’m curious how you think this new upgrade changes the dynamic with which has been this new competition, really, with Microsoft all over again?
PICHAI: Look, I, you know, on the consumer side, I think we are focused on evolving our products. You know, we’re evolving search, with search integrative experience. We are giving access to Gemini to our users. Gemini is going to power a lot of our products, right? You’re going to have Gemini for Workspace and your Gmail and your Google Docs. So, I just view this as us pushing boundaries where we need to go. There’s obviously a lot of competition in the tech space. You’re going to have Microsoft products, we compete with them. You know, we are growing our cloud business. So, it is a dynamic moment. But, you know, the best way to approach it is stay focused on what you can build for your users. So, that’s how I think about it.
SORKIN: What do you think of the search space itself? You have owned the search space for a very, very long time, and there is a question about how people are going to search for things in the future? Are they going to search them using classic Google? Are they going to use search or change what they’re even looking for? How they’re looking for it using Gemini or ChatGPT or a — Perplexity these days? I mean, there are — there are new folks coming on to the scene.
PICHAI: Look, we’ve always had moments in search like this and to me, part of what has made search work is we keep evolving search. Now, people — you know, people take it for granted, but we started answering questions in search with feature snippets, and we would use AI to extract the answer back in 2014, right? So, we’ve constantly been evolving search. We are doing the same. You know, Gemini is in search as well, and so, if you opt in to the search generative experience, and we will rolling it out to more and more people, you know, we give generative AI answers, but I think are the only ones doing it in a way where I think users are not only looking for AI summaries, AI answers, but really care about the richness and the diversity that exists in the — so they want to explore, too. So, I think our approach really prioritizes that balance, and, you know, all the data we see shows that people value their experience. So people are using it and they are also bringing Gemini and we’ll give users a chance to go back and forth. We’ll incorporate Gemini within search. So I’m excited. I see this as an opportunity for search to solve new or use cases better than ever before, but is there, you know, it’s always a moment of dynamism whenever you have platform shifts, no different than adapt to mobile and mobile to AI now and to be, a mode of excitement.
SORKIN: But there’s no part of you, there’s no worry for you that says this is a transformational moment? You know, for the last, call it what, two decades, search as we know, it has been something that I typically meant going to Google. And there’s a question mark I think for folks, first time in maybe two decades, about whether search is now going to mean something else?
PICHAI: You know, it’s, two platform shifts, yes. Even through mobile, people asks these questions about it because you had apps on your phone, you can directly download and go directly to. But I think, at the end of the day, you have to give value to users and people — and that’s what we see in our data, like people — people continue to come to Google, and they — you know, they do value. The thing that gives me a lot of optimism is when we test search generative experience, the feedback has been very positive, right? And, you know, and we have been testing it slowly. We are rolling it out to more people. So we know we’re going to evolve the product in an exciting direction and so, you know, that makes me very optimistic about what’s ahead.
SORKIN: Talking about what’s ahead when it comes to innovation, it feels like processing power and the capital to acquire that processing power is — is a central component of wherever you think this goes next, especially from a large language models. Do you think small players can innovate in this space or will ever be able to innovate in this space?
PICHAI: I definitely think so. I think the big thing that has changed is, you know, many of us now provide this large-scale infrastructure, right? So, compared to when Google was built, you know, today, if you’re a start-up, you could access, remember, we are giving access to Gemini, through cloud, you know, you know, the same models, right? And so, I think that really gives companies a chance to build amazing things on top of this infrastructure. So I think the next wave, if you’re building a company today, you have access to technology and there’s going to be open source as well. And so, the combination of the two, no different. The web enabled more companies to get created. The mobile enabled — you know, I don’t see why we would ever think a profound technology advance wouldn’t allow for more innovation on the other side. And it’s an opportunity for both the big players, as well as I think small players.
SORKIN: So we spoke with Lina Khan about a week ago and she, of course, is launching an inquiry, really a study, to look at the deal that both you and Meta made with Anthropic, as well as Microsoft’s new OpenAI. These are not mergers, of course, but partnerships, and whether these partnerships are going to ultimately benefit the incumbents. And that’s why I ask the question whether, if, you know, the Larry Pages or the Sergey Brins could sit in a garage today and come up with something that really could compete with Gemini, for example?
PICHAI: Look, I mean, look — we welcome, you know, we have taken, in fact, the way we’ve done these deals, deals don’t give us exclusive access to their models. If anything, we have supported companies like Anthropic. You know, truly, we’re giving them access to our cloud infrastructure and in a way they can go build these models, ship them and compete in the marketplace. So I think it’s pro-competitive. It’s pro-innovation. And, you know, I, I would never underestimate the power of people, you know, entrepreneurs being able to imagine the future. And I think you’ll continue to see great innovation including in AI.
SORKIN: Between the AI and the cloud growth you’ve had, and that infrastructure you just talked about, building, which so many people are allowed to use now and innovate on top of, recently, the Biden administration and the Department of Commerce specifically proposed regulation to require cloud companies like yours, and including yours, to affectively cut off access to data from the Chinese and to disclose who, in terms of foreign actors, are on those platforms. How is that going to be something that you would enforce and what is your thought about that?
PICHAI: Obviously with AI, some of these regulations are newer, right? And so we are in their consultation. Part of the reason even with Gemini Ultra, you know, we spent a few months testing it for safety. We gave access to people outside, outside researchers, and where needed, we’ll comply with the directives, but I think it’s definitely something that has to be done in consultation with the right regulatory agencies. But I think at Google, we are used to, be GDPR in Europe, or, you know, complying with regulations, I think it’s part of the competency we’ve built up over time, to make sure, you know, we do the right thing from a regulatory standpoint and I see this as no different.
SORKIN: Right.
PICHAI: If anything, as the frontier moves, I expect more, more things like that. I think it’s important to balance it with making sure people can innovate and make progress on what’s a promising technology. So, I think there’s a balance to be had here. But we are committed to taking a safe and responsible approach.
SORKIN: How should we think — and I know we’re walking to an election season and the like about deepfakes. There was a deepfake of Taylor Swift just a couple weeks ago that, you know, was posted and then went around everywhere, went viral, and was taken down. There was a voice call, robocall made in New Hampshire with Biden’s voice, telling voters, don’t go to the voting booth. I mean, how much of that kind of thing do you think we’re going to be seeing over the next, you know, ten months or so? And how concerned should we be, and what can the technology companies do or not do? And to some degree, I’d even ask the question, who should be held responsible for some of that?
PICHAI: You know, it’s a great question. I think the first set of, when we talk about AI risks, the most important category which we will play out in the near-term will be around deepfakes. You gave a few examples. We’re just reading an example about where a company in Hong Kong, you know, somebody paid out $25 million, because they impersonated the CFO, you know, to get that money out. So I think it’s a real issue. Part of the reason we’re being cautious in deploying some of our work is we want to put the right safeguards in place. So, we launched SynthID, a way to watermark images as we generate them. But these are all early technologies. I think all of us have more work left to do. There is no way companies alone can solve this. You are going to need, you know, you are going to need important laws to protect — you know, against these deepfakes and, you know, it’s no different from spam or fraud in the financial sector or so on. You’re going need more frameworks, and it has to be a collaboration I think, and we will have to evolve it. I think all of us are taking the responsibility seriously. This is a year in which almost one in three people around the world are going through an electro-process, right, not just in the U.S.
SORKIN: Right.
PICHAI: So, I think it’s been a big focus for us, and it’s part of the reason as a bigger company, we’ve been — we’ve been doing the extra work to build in safeguards as we ship these things.
SORKIN: So, I assume every day, somebody’s trying to trick Gemini into doing something it’s not supposed to do. I know last week, some folks were — for example, Gemini is not supposed to create images of celebrities, of real people, for example, but there was an example where somebody tricked it into creating a picture of Taylor Swift. Are these edge cases? Do you think this is an issue 12 months from now that you’ll always be grappling with, that there’s always going to be a way in? And is that because people don’t fully understand the black box? Is that because there’s just so many sort of guardrails you need to put up? How do you think about those things?
PICHAI: Look, I think — I think it is a real serious issue. I think we need to all make progress on it. Today, you know, you’re figuring out trade-offs between the more you put safeguards, you are also reducing the model’s capabilities, right? So, these are inherently trade-offs. So, you have to figure out a way to have the model to have its capabilities while building in the right safeguards at the right moments. So there are, you know — and there’s underlying research we need to do to actually watermark and conduct all of this in a safe way, right? Sorry, in a reliable and a consistent way. And so there is still an area of research. So I think — I think that’s why you have to have balance in terms of how widely you deploy this technology, right? So, there’s definitely a balance to be had, but I think this is no different from other moments. You know, I think the ingenuity of humanity is figuring out how to harness technology in a beneficial way and it’s got — well, companies, governments, nonprofits, etc.
SORKIN: How do you think about the governance of AI? And obviously, we saw it. Actually, I’d be very curious to know what you thought as you watched the issues play out at OpenAI with Sam Altman, around governance?
PICHAI: Look, you know, I think, you know, for sure, you — I mean, governance, to me, that moment showed how important governance is and, you know, I wished them well, and, you know, it’s an important company. But I think when you’re deploying such important technology, I think it’s important to have the right governance — right governance. And over time, you know, as a society, we will grapple with how best to guide this technology. It will have implications for national security as an example, right? So, those are all trade-offs we’re going to have to make. I think what is good about this moment, I think it’s making — compared to any other technology, people are thinking about all of this at an earlier stage, partly because people realize the future potential of A.I. So, I think there’s a lot of important conversations underway. I think the answers aren’t fully clear, but I think, you know, we are making more progress than people think, too so that gives me optimism.
SORKIN: I want to talk about TV and sports for a second just because the Super Bowl is coming up and there was a big deal made this week in the sports TV world. You’ve been writing YouTube TV, quite successful. And, of course, YouTube is now bigger than Netflix — a fact that I think most people don’t focus on. What do you think is going to happen to the — to the cable bundle? You’ve been part of sort of keeping that bundle through YouTube TV. What do you think about this new bundle that Disney is creating with Warner Brothers, Discovery and Fox?
PICHAI: First of all, I mean, these are some of our important valued partners, both on YouTube and YouTube TV, and I expect our partnerships to continue. Look, I think people are responding to how users are consuming all of this, right? And users are ordering with their feet, the consumption patterns are clearly evolving, and I think — I think you’re seeing people adapt to that. So, I’m excited to see what they put together. These are great organizations, and they are — some of our valued partners, too. As you said, YouTube TV is now over 8 million subscribers and, you know, we — the work we have done with NFL on Sunday ticket has been super well-received and, you know, I’m excited for the Super Bowl as well. So —
SORKIN: Do you see yourself becoming a major bidder over time for sports?
PICHAI: I think it’s a great question. I think we will be ROI-focused. So, I think the answer — it depends. For us, the NFL Sunday ticket gives us a great way to work with a very, very good partner, with very valuable content, and see how it works. So far, it’s been great, but I think we will have a disciplined ROI framework. We now have subscription products. We have advertising products. Some of this pulls through demand on the — our advertising products as well. So I think we’ll evaluate it on a case-by-case basis.
SORKIN: All right. Culture question — you’ve been going through a number of layoffs. Those of us who try to keep up with the company from the outside have been reading articles about some of the all-hands meetings and frustration that you’re hearing from employees and the like. What’s happening inside the company right now?
PICHAI: Look, first of all, I mean, we see an extraordinary opportunity ahead, given — given the shifts under way and we are enlisting for the future. But I think it’s important, we are able to create capacity with — from within. And so, some of it is refocusing and reprioritizing within the company, making sure we can make the investments we need. And we really focus on improving velocity and execution as a company as well. You know, when it impacts people, it’s hard, particularly for a company like Google which for the past 25 years hasn’t gone through a moment like this, but, you know, we’ve always deeply cared about our employees. I don’t think most companies engage with employees in the transparent way we do, and I think that creates some of this conversation outside. But I’ve always viewed it as a source of strength for the company. And, you know, we’ll work through this moment and I’m excited about the opportunities we have ahead and the innovation we have ahead of us.
SORKIN: What do you think Google looks like in five years from now?
PICHAI: Look, I think — I think part of what excites me as a company is for the first time, we are working on — always been a deep technology-focused company at the foundation, but with Gemini and A.I., it’s the same technology which impacts search, YouTube, cloud, Waymo and so on. So, we can invest in this underlying technology and build both amazing products and businesses on top in a leveraged way. And — and we are investing for the future. So I’m excited about what’s ahead, and if anything, I think it will be a gold indicator of innovation ahead at Google.
