WHEN: Today, Wednesday, January 22, 2025
WHERE: CNBC’s “Squawk Box”
Following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC interview with JPMorgan Chase Chairman & CEO Jamie Dimon on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” (M-F, 6AM-9AM ET) today, Wednesday, January 22 live from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Following are links to video on CNBC.com: https://www.cnbc.com/video/2025/01/22/jamie-dimon-on-tariffs-if-its-a-little-inflationary-but-good-for-national-security-so-be-it.html, https://www.cnbc.com/video/2025/01/22/jpmorgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-growth-is-the-only-real-solution-to-reducing-deficits-and-debt.html and https://www.cnbc.com/video/2025/01/22/jpmorgan-ceo-jamie-dimon-on-elon-musk-the-guy-is-our-einstein.html.
All references must be sourced to CNBC.
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: And our next guest is going to be weighing on on everything the state of the U.S. economy, the banking sector, rates and so much more Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan Chase chairman and CEO. Thank you, sir, for being here once again.
JAMIE DIMON: Andrew, thrilled to be here though. I, Becky, I miss you. And, Joe, I’m sure you’re watching. And I lost my wingman, so I’m not going to do a walk-off, but I was thinking about it.
SORKIN: Oh, well, okay, so here, you know what though? I’m going to start with this though because last year, you were here and your words went around the world because you told our audience you have to respect the Trump voter.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: You said that Trump got it right on a lot of things, including immigration.
DIMON: Or partially right, yeah.
SORKIN: And some other things. And I’m curious what the re — I mean, you watch the reaction in real time.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: And you got calls and emails and all sorts of things that didn’t just happen the day of, but I think happened for months afterwards.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: What that was like for you and also what you think now?
DIMON: Yeah. Well, first of all, welcome, everybody. Thrilled to be here. You know, of course, you ever have an opinion, as you guys know. It just, it comes up everywhere. And a lot of what people are responding to isn’t what you said or thought or it’s just what snippets they heard or something like that. So I’m used to that. I was really just trying to make the point of respect a voter. The problem with putting a voter in a box is a voter may be voting for someone for completely different reasons than you think or I think or something like that, and respect why they may have grievances or angers. And I was trying to point out that there was some, you know, we had problems at the border wall, that NATO needed to spend more money, that the economy wasn’t growing enough, we hadn’t grown the income for the bottom 20 percent for the better part of 20 years, and that we should respect that. And when people automatically, you know, get angry over an issue, it takes away their ability to analyze why that person may be voting that way.
SORKIN: So let me ask you about how you feel now because you made a comment about a week ago where you said not that you were cautiously optimistic about our economy, and there’s, by the way, I think a lot of optimism by US CEOs. But you said you were cautiously pessimistic.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: Why?
DIMON: I was probably, I don’t know where I said, I was probably making a little bit of a joke, but I do have a little more caution around a bunch of subjects, okay? And why, you know, America is an unbelievable place. The growth is unbelievable. Pro-business growth is great. Anti — getting rid of — I hate the word regulation. It sounds like we’re trying to get away with something. But the bureaucracy, the whole American public knows the bureaucracy. It is extraordinary and it’s been allowed to blossom like a cancer all throughout our country and it damages everybody quite a bit. And so, but what I’m a little cautious about is the deficit spending, and it’s a global issue. It’s not just an American issue, and the related, will inflation go away? I’m not so sure. And would if rates go up? Credit spreads go up? You know, asset price are already quite elevated. So that’s kind of one issue. But the really important one is geopolitics. It’s Ukraine, Iran, Russia, North Korea and the related role of China in that. And that just got me very concerned how it’s going to affect our world for the next 100 years. Whether or not these things get resolved in the next couple of next year, months or whatever.
SORKIN: Where do, where do tariffs fit in? Because that’s a topic here in Davos that everybody’s talking about. Trump talked about tariffs just yesterday. Mary Erdoes, your colleague, was on stage talking about how your firm has created a, quote/unquote, war room—
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: That’s looking at each of these executive orders as they come in, trying to assess what they mean for the bank and I imagine for your clients.
DIMON: Yeah. So we always, I mean, “war room” may be a bad word, but we always, this is a real-time full thing analyzing for clients, for communities, for a bank. We get a million questions and stuff like that. Yeah, look, I look at tariffs, they are an economic tool. That’s it. They’re an economic weapon. You know, depending how you use it and why you use it stuff like that. And you know, people arguing, is it inflationary and non-inflationary? I would put in perspective, if it’s a little inflationary, but it’s good for national security, so be it. I mean, get over it. National security trumps a little bit more inflation. But I think it, really, the question is how they get used. Can they get, be used to bring people to the table? Yes. Is there some unfair trade? Yes. Is there some state-owned set subsidies? Yes. You know, is the president going to use that way in his team? Yeah, and we’ll see. But you know, how it gets played out, we’re going to find out. And—
SORKIN: On the topic of the markets, Becky and I were talking on the broadcast yesterday about an article in “The Wall Street Journal” that was looking at the beginning of presidential terms and the PE ratio, and we are at historic highs.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: And I wonder whether that factors into your thinking about being cautiously pessimistic about where the market goes in this environment. Are we priced for perfection?
DIMON: Yeah. You know, I think asset prices are kind of inflated, and you know, by any measure, the top 10 or 15 percent, I’m talking about the US stock market. But it’s not true for stock markets around the world and they say sovereign debts priced pretty well, credit spreads are all all-time highs. So, yeah, they’re elevated.
SORKIN: They’re elevated.
DIMON: And you need fairly good outcomes to justify those prices and we’re all hoping for that and I think, you know, having pro-growth strategies helps make that happen. But there are negatives out there and they can tend to surprise you.
SORKIN: Hey, Becky? I think Becky’s got a question for you back home.
BECKY QUICK: Yeah, Jamie, first of all, hi. Great to see you. Second of all, the stronger dollar, how do you weigh into that? And I’m just thinking because we just finished talking to Joe Wolk from Johnson and Johnson. Procter & Gamble is going to be reporting this morning. It was a really rapid rise for the dollar and that’s going to mean some things for some of these international companies, especially if you consider the potential for tariffs and retribution tariffs on the other side. How you, how do you kind of play that out? And is that one of the things you guys are gaming out in the war room?
DIMON: Yeah. I don’t take the, I don’t think it’s as important as people think. You know, the stronger dollar is an outcome of all these other things.
QUICK: Yeah.
DIMON: And so, you know, all things being equal, an American president, American secretary treasury can say, we want a stronger dollar because what that means that your economy is strengthening versus others generally. So, and you know, it’ll bounce around and, of course, tariffs can change the dollar and but the most important thing is growth. You know, good economic growth is good for the United States, will probably strengthen the dollar. And so, you know, we should be wishing for that and yes, it’ll have some negative effects in some companies. But most people be voting for the, you know, better growth around the world.
SORKIN: I’m curious—
DIMON: Now, I should point, the world needs more growth. So even being here with Europe, you know, you talked to European nations and how their GDP stagnated for the better part of 15 years, you know, growth is the only real solution to reduce these deficits, to reduce, you know, debt and to make the investments necessary to grow.
QUICK: So—
DIMON: There a lot of investments, by the way, but I don’t think it’s government investment. I think it’s also private capital. Private capital dwarfs government investment. And so I think—
QUICK: Do you think—
DIMON: You’d be very careful about thinking the government can fix all these things.
QUICK: Do you think other nations, let’s say, Europe and around, do you think that they are recognizing that and thinking that they need to change their ways to be more like the United States? To go after bureaucracy, to maybe change tax codes, to try and lure private capital?
DIMON: Totally. I mean, you know, I heard a little bit of a speech from the President Von Der Leyen yesterday. I met today with some, you know, Chancellor Reeves of the UK. I don’t think there’s anyone who doesn’t understand that they need more growth and that certain things that people have done have inhibited growth. Inhibited, it’s regulations, it’s permitting, it’s rules, it’s, you know, I put in general anti-business sentiment is, it’s having kids, having skills getting out. I think everyone realizes that, but the real trick here is execution. You can talk about it all you want. You can, the Draghi report, I mean, that’s great. But they have to execute the Draghi report. And so, a lot of people are talking about the Draghi report, and I think in the United States, the same thing. People are realizing how damaging these things have been.
SORKIN: Well, talking about the United States, I’m curious what you think about DOGE and what Elon Musk is doing. You’ve had a frenemy, complicated relationship with Elon Musk over the years, given lawsuits and other things back and forth. What do you think of his role in all of this? And what do you think DOGE can actually do?
DIMON: Yeah. Elon and I have hugged it out this morning.
SORKIN: You hugged it out?
DIMON: Yeah. He came to one of our conferences. He and I had a nice long chat. We settled some of our differences. And the guy, I mean, you got to look at Elon. I mean, SpaceX. I mean, Tesla. You know, Neuralink. I just, I mean, the guy is our Einstein. And so, I like to be helpful to him and his company as much as we can. I think it is completely rational for someone to look at our government and say, it’s been ineffective. What, of the grievances, you know, I would say that you have inner city schools and educations, income didn’t go for the bottom 20 percent for the better part of 20 years, literally until the tail end of Trump’s first administration. But we deserve good government, and I don’t think anyone thinks sending another trillion dollars to Washington, D.C. will lend to good government. So government needs to be more accountable, needs to be more efficient. It should be outcomes-based. I mean, I say department by department. So I wish them the best. It’s going to be complicated. You know, the federal government’s complicated. You read about all the people in it. And so, you know, if we could be helpful to them and I’d love to be helpful to them.
SORKIN: Let me ask you about the bank because it’s on fire, profit rising 50 percent, $14 billion in the fourth quarter. I mean, which is extraordinary. Where are you, I mean, one of the things you’ve done over the years that I’ll give you enormous without pandering you I’ll give you some credit for a moment which is, obviously, the bank is stronger than it’s ever been. But you’ve been opportunistic about buying things and being in a position to buy things when the moment arises. First Republic being the last example, but of course, during the financial crisis. I’m curious when you think about investing now on behalf of the bank, what do you even look at?
DIMON: Yeah, yeah. I don’t think doing a big deal is like in our cards, you know? And some of those were done to help the United States at the time. They weren’t necessarily done for JPMorgan. And we have great people. I mean, you know a lot of them. They’re just, I mean, I feel blessed with that. So that’s the beginning thing. And obviously, if you don’t have good people, you’re not going to have a good bank. And at the end of the day, that is the number one thing. But in terms of investing and I could go country by country, area by area, and think we can actually invest and grow. And investing shows up as bankers, physical locations and technology, and marketing. So we spend, you know, a lot of money in marketing, to create new cars and stuff like that. So we think we can gain share in investment banking, wealth management, retail, small business. We still have big pockets of, you know, Daniel Pinto always talks about the yellows and the reds, where we’re not very good. You know, and that could be, you know, FX and Vietnam.
SORKIN: Right.
DIMON: But those are huge opportunities done probably over time.
SORKIN: I want to ask you another question, I don’t know if you saw this article, this in “The Wall Street Journal”. Anti-DEI activists target Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase. There’s been a vibe shift. We talked about it a lot here in Davos, a rebuke of ESG, a rebuke of DEI. Robby Starbuck is out there, going after companies. You now have a couple of activists going after your company.
DIMON: Really? Not that I’m aware.
SORKIN: Are you aware of this?
DIMON: Well, bring them on. I’m not aware of it.
SORKIN: Well, that’s what I was going to ask you, in terms of what you think your approach should to DEI should be given that we’ve seen a whole number of companies effectively end these programs in large part under pressure? And by the way, it’s worth pointing out, one of the first executive orders that President Trump put in place was to end DEI within the government.
DIMON: Yeah. So I think, first of all, I don’t like monikers and it makes it sound like it’s a binary thing of what you do. And so, let me just tell you what we do, and we what we’ve always done. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to change policies going forward. We’ve always done our own thing in climate. So we get criticized by people in the left and the right about climate. We’ve financed the biggest oil and gas companies who’ve done a great job reducing their CO2, by the way. We finance, we’re the biggest financer of solar and wind, and we finance companies. We finance Tesla at this point. We finance a lot of different things. And here, our outreach and it, it’s commercial.
SORKIN: Right.
DIMON: This is 90 percent for-profit. We are going to continue to reach out to the Black community, Hispanic community, the LGBT community, the veterans community, the, we have a special program, a disabled second chance initiative. And wherever I go, red states, blue states, green states, mayors, governors and they said they like what we do.
SORKIN: Right.
DIMON: So we’re not trying to pander to any which side or any which thing. Now, if you pointed out something that we’re doing that’s wrong, I change it at point, and you know, so, and we will make modifications going forward. But we’re very proud of we’ve done and what we’ve done is lift up cities, schools, states, hospitals, countries, companies, and we’re going to do more of the same.
SORKIN: So you’re going to tell these activists to go pound sand it sounds?
DIMON: I don’t know which what you’re talking about. If they got something that we’re doing wrong, I’ll listen to what they have to say.
SORKIN: I got to ask you about a topic you, I know you hate to talk about but I got to ask because the president is all in on it which is bitcoin, potentially a strategic bitcoin reserve.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: You can now buy a Trump coin, meme coin, if you could buy the Melania coin if you like.
DIMON: Really?
SORKIN: No, what do you make of this? Because this could be a true shift—
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: In terms of by the way, talking about the strength of the dollar, I don’t know what you think happens to the strength of the dollar if bitcoin becomes our reserve currency.
DIMON: Okay. This, we use Blockchain and I think there’ll be really use for Blockchain and stable coins. We have the thing called the JPMorgan deposit token.
SORKIN: Yeah.
DIMON: So you can move money. It’s a JPMorgan deposit worth par wherever you go. I’m not going to talk about the bitcoin.
SORKIN: You’re not going to talk about the bitcoin?
DIMON: Not at all. You guys talk about plenty. Just like you used to talk about AOL all the time. I’m not going to spend much time on it.
SORKIN: Well, let me ask you this though and maybe it just speaks to animal spirits or speculation or something, in terms of the markets.
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: What do you make though of the public market? People are betting. They’re, by the way, they’re gambling on sports.
DIMON: What’s that great quote?
SORKIN: They’re gambling on meme coins.
DIMON: What’s that show “Casablanca”? Oh, they’re gambling in my shop. Really? There’s been gambling going on for millenniums.
SORKIN: But does it say anything about this moment?
DIMON: I have no —
SORKIN: In terms of the economy?
DIMON: I have no interest in this particular subject. People are going to speculate. Some will win and some will lose.
SORKIN: Lastly, we always ask you the question and well, it’s the succession question—
DIMON: Yeah.
SORKIN: Which is Doug Pinto or Daniel Pinto, I apologize. I called him Doug Pinto — is going to be stepping down. You just mentioned him. He’s been he’s been literally the if you get hit by a bus guy who takes over. How do you feel about him stepping down and how long do you think you’re really going to continue doing this?
DIMON: Well, Daniel has been such a magnificent partner. And for the public, just to know, he started as a kid in Argentina at 20. He ended up running a little piece of Argentina, then running trade in Latin America, then running emerging market trade, then running global trade, then running the CIB, help build the one of the best investment banks the world has. And so, and he’s been a partner of mine. He’s trusted by everyone around. He’ll still be around. He’s not going away and then he hopefully, he’ll stay as a which we said he wants to as a—
SORKIN: Right.
DIMON: As a vice chairman after that because he’s got just enormous capability and stuff like that. But you know, there’s a time, you know, and there’s a time. And Daniel leaving, leaves a vacuum, but that’s good because now, other people have filled that vacuum and give other people more things to do. I’m blessed to have great people. We’re, you know, we’re working on the succession and we’re convinced that that we have a good one. You know, you saw Jen Piepszak, who is another fabulous talent, who said she doesn’t really want my job, which you, I can’t tell people what they’re going to want or not want. I always kind of worry about that a little bit. But she, but she’s also devoted to the company and she’s going to stay. That brings huge continuity because she’s willing to work with any of the people that you would speculate be a successor.
SORKIN: Would you ever, you know, 2028 is around the corner.
DIMON: What’s about that?
SORKIN: For you.
DIMON: Oh, I, no.
SORKIN: Never?
DIMON: Running for any kind of office? No.
SORKIN: Is that really off the table?
DIMON: Yeah. Well, no, you know me. I’m not going to make any promise to you. I will never make a promise to anyone, but I don’t intend to do it.
SORKIN: Okay. Jamie Dimon, it’s always good to see you. Thank you for coming in.
DIMON: Andrew, thank you.
SORKIN: Good to see you.
DIMON: Folks, thank you. Miss you, Becky.
SORKIN: We’ll see you back in New York.
QUICK: Miss you too. Jamie. Thank you very much.
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m: 201.397.2838
