WHEN: Today, Wednesday, June 14, 2023
WHERE: CNBC’s “Squawk Box”
Following is the unofficial transcript of a CNBC exclusive interview with former Vice President Mike Pence on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” (M-F, 6AM-9AM ET) today, Wednesday, June 14. Following is a link to video on CNBC.com:
All references must be sourced to CNBC.
JOE KERNEN: Joining us now to talk about that and the 2024 race, the state of the economy and more, former Vice President Mike Pence. Thanks for joining us. Mr. VP.
MIKE PENCE: You bet Joe. Good to see y’all.
BECKY QUICK: Good to see you.
KERNEN: You could have told us last time, but you didn’t and then told somebody else but now we know so you’re in the race.
PENCE: We are. We are.
KERNEN: Unprecedented kind of surreal situation that all of the candidates well on both sides find themselves in but the developments of this week make it a fine line that many of the GOP candidates are walking in how to characterize the developments of this week and I’m talking about what happened with the former President Trump.
PENCE: Well, first let me say, it’s great to be back on “Squawk Box.”
KERNEN: It’s good to have you sir.
PENCE: With all three of you. Look, I went to Iowa last week and said that after a lot of prayer and deliberation, my wife and I made the decision to step into the race. I’m running for President of the United States because I think this country is in a lot of trouble. The Biden administration’s weakened America at home and abroad. We have war raging in Eastern Europe, provocations in the Asia Pacific. And I hardly need to tell people on “Squawk Box” about the challenges in this economy. I know that the administration is boasting about inflation being down but it’s it’s still twice what the target of the Fed is. We’re all anxiously awaiting what the Fed will decide today and the truth is, we need new leadership. I believe in the Republican Party. We need new leadership in the United States to get us back to the policies that had this country growing, had this country secure, had the world more peaceful, but it is a, it’s a very challenging time in the life of the nation. And I think yesterday was a very sad day for America and to see a former president of the United States brought into court and subject to charges I think was dispiriting—
KERNEN: But you’re on record saying that they’re serious charges and they’re concerning.
PENCE: Well, look, no one’s above the law and we’re all entitled to the perception of innocence.
KERNEN: That’s the problem though, that’s the argument from the other side is that some people. There seems to be a two-tiered justice system that’s that’s that’s what the Trump supporters are saying. Is there something to that?
PENCE: Well, of course, there is Joe. I mean, we live through it. I mean, we saw Hillary Clinton engage in this kind of behavior with regard to classified materials and to be given a pass in 2016. We saw two and a half years of the Russia hoax and now thanks to the Durham report, we know it was an investigation that should have never even been started. And we’ve seen a Justice Department that seems to have a two-tiered system of justice. None of that changes the fact though that the handling of classified materials is a very serious matter, not only from my years as Vice President, but also my my years on the International Relations Committee and and look, I had a chance to review the indictment over the weekend. And this indictment contains serious charges, and I cannot defend what is alleged. I will tell you as not only as a former vice president but also my son’s a Marine, my son in law’s a Navy lieutenant. The very prospect that what is alleged here took place creating an opportunity where highly sensitive classified material could have fallen into the wrong hands even inadvertently, that that jeopardizes our national security and puts at risk the men and women of our armed forces and as I said, I can’t defend what is alleged but the former President has a right to his day in court. I know he’s pled not guilty and at the end of the day though, Joe, as you suggested, I can’t I just can’t, I can’t believe that politics didn’t play some role here. We’ve seen the politicization at the Department of Justice for years and years, we saw FBI agents that falsified official documents to further that Russia hoax. And so one of the things I’ve said in the days since this news broke shortly after I announced for president was if I have the privilege to be President of the United States, we’re going to clean house at the Department of Justice. We’re going to find men and women who are universally respected by both political parties and we’re going to restore public confidence and equal treatment under the law.
KERNEN: Mr. Vice President, you were there for four years with the President Trump, do you think he’s, I mean some of this stuff would be characterized as reckless and I’m just wondering that the voters, you know where the polls are again, I don’t know. You know, people discount polls, but sometimes these numbers go up with things like this, you’re in single digits. He’s at like 40 or 50%. It, does it ever affect GOP voters to the extent that they say I, I, you know, I support this, I supported his policies. I’ve even defended him and said this is not right the way the Justice Department seems weaponized, but I don’t want him sitting in that seat again, does that ever occur to voters that, is that what you’re hoping for as a candidate?
PENCE: Well, no, I’m not hoping for anybody else to fail. I’m hoping to prevail on the basis of 20 years of experience, look, I think our party needs new leadership, but I think our country needs new leadership. And I think this is no time for on the job training for anybody.
QUICK: They—
PENCE: I mean, I spent 12 years in the Congress, I don’t know everybody in the house majority, but everybody I know is a committee chairman. And I know all the members of the Senate. I know governors around the country. I’ve been a governor. I’ve been a vice president. The magnitude of problems and challenges that this country is facing, Becky, I think demand that those of us that have the experience and the ability to lead and make a difference step forward and that’s why I’m running for president.
QUICK: The Journal’s lead editorial today is about the situation with former President Trump they say he’s his own worst enemy. They say the narcissism and wretched judgment are familiar but still hard to believe that’s a quote from this. They think if he is renominated by primary, Republican primary voters that he will lose in a general election, and that it’s really up to the primary voters to make this decision. Do you agree with that?
PENCE: Well, I’m running for President because I think I’m the best choice not just to lead our party but to lead our nation. I say that with deep humility. I mean, my family and I have been blessed with the opportunities to serve this country. But as I said early on, I different times call for different leadership. And I want to say I, as I said, I can’t defend what is alleged in this indictment, but the President’s entitled to his day in court, he’s entitled to make his defense. We are a nation of laws and not of man as the old saying goes, and I I think this is a time where as Americans we ought to hew to our roots, to our commitment to the rule of law. I also think it’s a pretty good time to remember to pray for this country, to pray for the former president, to pray for all those in authority and really to pray for healing in our divided land.
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: Mr. Vice President, one of the things I think that folks are confused by is both the rule of law idea that you just raised but at the same time, this almost I don’t want to say defense of the President, but this idea that this what you described as a two-tiered system that you think is ultimately unfair, and that this is a political prosecution and which side of that you’re on? You have a particular view. Chris Christie, by the way, as you know, has a very different view when we do talk about law and order by the way on this program, we talk a lot about you know, a theft in stores in by the way, a lot of blue states and we say this is this is incredible. This is terrible. We have to prosecute these things under all circumstances. And so what I don’t I this the two-tiered thing, we have a two-tiered unfortunately, there’s a two-tiered in so many different ways across this country in terms of how we deal with crime, but I’m curious if you could just sort of square that circle for us.
PENCE: Well, I don’t think there’s any circle to square. I think two things are true today. Number one is no one’s above the law. This indictment includes serious charges. And as I’ve said here in the panel, and I can’t defend what’s allege, their handling of classified materials is vitally important for the country. But look, we’ve gone through about trying to do the math here about seven years where the American people have lost confidence in our Department of Justice. I mean, whether it was when Jim Comey excused very similar behavior by Hillary Clinton in the run up to the 2016 campaign, or whether it was two and a half years that I lived through as Vice President of the United States. We were fighting to cut taxes, rollback regulation, unleash American energy, we were under a hailstorm from most of the media, the Democratic Party over what we now know is a complete fraud and investigation that should never have been brought. And then the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story by big tech, big media when the FBI actually had the laptop and could have made it clear that it was in fact factual. All of that has undermined public confidence in the Department of Justice. And so, as I said, President has his right to make his case in court. He’s pled not guilty, can make his case, I want to withhold judgment before the President makes his case. But that doesn’t change the fact that tens of millions of Americans have have a sense of a two-tiered system of justice. And I think it cries out for new leadership. It’s why I’ve said I spent years on the Judiciary Committee, I understand how the Department of Justice works. It’s why I’ve said if I have the privilege to serve as President of the United States, 18 months from now, one of the first things we’re going to do is we’re going to clean house at the highest levels of the Department of Justice, and we’re gonna bring in men and women who are above reproach who are respected on both sides of the aisle. We got to have respect for the rule of law in this country and for all of those who enforce that law.
KERNEN: Mr. Vice President, it did, it put us in a bind because I remember like it was yesterday, Jim Comey. I thought he was gonna bring charges. He outlined for 15 minutes all the egregious things that the FBI had found about Hillary Clinton and said, but we’re in an election and I don’t think this is the right thing to do to prosecute right now. Now, we’re in an election and to anyone who is a Trump supporter it looks like a weaponized DOJ. So it doesn’t help the country it doesn’t help either side it just puts us in a in a really divisive situation.
PENCE: Joe, that’s why it really is a sad day. Because as you talk about here on “Squawk Box,” we have real challenges in this country. We’ve had three major bank failures, we’re all waiting with anticipation about what the Fed is going to do today.
KERNEN: What do you think the Fed should do? We’ll talk a little bit about business anyway.
PENCE: Well, look I mean, the point of the matter is, however you’re managing interest rates right now doesn’t change the fact that we have a debt crisis in this country, $32 trillion in a national debt. First time we’ve had a national debt the size of our nation’s economy since World War II, but it’s on a trajectory to increase to $150 trillion and Joe Biden won’t even talk about the major drivers of our national debt, which are entitlements, and frankly, my former running mates’ position is the same as Joe Biden’s. I mean, we we have to have leadership that can just be honest with the American people.
QUICK: Kevin McCarthy has said the same thing—
PENCE: And say we’ve got to bring about fiscal responsibility and reform. So that’s, whatever the Fed decides today, whether they tap the brake whether they pause, it doesn’t change the fundamental fact that inflation while it’s 4% today, you know, overall, I pulled the numbers, we’re 16.2% inflation since this administration took office. In two years, they’ve increased inflation twice what it increased over four years of our administration. That’s not a policy that signals the the strength of our economy and the integrity of the dollar and we just got to get back to a commitment of fiscal fiscal solvency and reform.
KERNEN: We’re gonna have Judy Shelton, we’re big advertisers for The Wall Street Journal today, another op-ed piece is that the Fed’s monetary policy toolkit needs an overhaul. Her point is that when you stay at zero forever, things like MMT modern monetary theory things like we can spend forever and there’s not any repercussions so even though the Fed is supposedly an independent body that they do sort of, I don’t know, give a tailwind to fiscal types to spend too much money and that has to be changed.
PENCE: Well, they absolutely do. I mean, we went through this series of quantitative easing where, you know, basically, we had free money which frankly, with all due respect, sitting here in New York, was a good thing for a lot of people on Wall Street. But what we’re seeing with this inflation, it wasn’t a very good thing for people on Main Street. And I gotta tell you, everywhere I go across the country, people are hurting with the rising cost of living. The American people want to see leadership in Washington D.C. that restores economic growth, restrains inflation and also has the courage to be willing to step forward and be honest with the American people about the real debt crisis that’s facing our children and our grandchildren. You know, you got Father’s Day coming up this Sunday, so I intend to be spoiled when I get back home to Indiana. One of our kids is actually going to be home with a couple of our granddaughters. I just can’t look at those three little granddaughters of ours and walk by on the other side of the road and say no, this is going to be your problem. You all are going to have to deal with this in your day when I know that in our time, if we would summon the will of the American people, we can change the fiscal trajectory of this country and that more than any of the changes in the Fed or or, you know, small changes in Congress. That’s what will put us back on a path of prosperity and security for years to come.
KERNEN: We’ll end it there. Mr. Vice President, I don’t know what what to think of the next, when’s the next election for President, 2024 November, how many months we got it? The way it looks right now it is like I said right at the top. It is surreal. It is surreal with what we’re looking if you believe the polls
PENCE: Joe, I look well, I’ve every confidence in the American people. I have every confidence in Republican primary voters are going to choose wisely. We’re going to choose the right leadership to fit into this moment and we’re going to restore the security and prosperity of this country by so help us God.
KERNEN: That sounds like that sounds like a campaign speech and we appreciate it. And we hope to see you again we’ll see what whether anything changes by then Mr. Vice President. Thanks.
PENCE: Thanks guys.
